My 5 yeasr old Son scolded me today..

[dabrockster]

Wasn't sure if I should put this in Foyer or Back fence. Hopefully this is the right place. If not feel free to change it...

So, Last night we had a lesson in FHE about the Pre-existence and how there were two plans to come to earth. How Jesus plan was to give us all free agency and Satan's plan was to force us all to not sin.. He enjoyed it and I wasn't sure if any of it clicked until today..


This morning as I was preparing to leave and he was getting ready to go out to school for "Safety Town" here at the local school. I asked him to put on his sandals as we got ready. And he turned and said,

"Dad, you are being like Satan"!!

A little stunned by his comment, I asked him how was I being like Satan?? His response was,

"Because you are trying to force me to do something I don't want to do. I don't want to put on Sandals. I want to put on my shoes"..

By that proclamation I said you can put whatever shoes/sandals you want on and left the room holding the laughter in until I got out of his room when I busted a gut..

My only concern is that he has found a loop hole in my parenting skills that he may try and push the limits of and I will have to figure out a way to counter......

[Jeff Lebowski]

That is awesome. Smart kid you've got there.

[cougjunkie]

Reminds me of when my 4 year old was learning about Joseph Smith in primary. I asked what she learned and she said:

"Do not get angry mobs mad or they will kill you, also its not nice to kill people"

[dabrockster]

Reminds me of when my 4 year old was learning about Joseph Smith in primary. I asked what she learned and she said:

"Do not get angry mobs mad or they will kill you, also its not nice to kill people"

LOL.. Nice..

[FMCoug]

I was called Satan in my Sunday School class a few weeks ago (12 year olds). We did an object lesson that involved a mason jar (your body), water (other's testimonies), sugar (desire), and yeast (the holy ghost) to "grow" a testimony. Anyway it went fine but towards the end of the lesson a kid said "your testimony is exploding". Turns out I needed a bigger mason jar. So I hurried and dumped it in the sink (we meet in the kitchen) and a kid said "You're like Satan! You're killing someone's testimony!"

[COUGALICIOUS]

Funny story - but I know some parents who think that, e.g., forcing their kids to go to church is Satan's plan.

I don't think that. I plan on saying what my parents said: in our family we go to church, it is a rule - someday you will be an adult and leave our family, and you can make your own decisions. In the meantime, we expect you to obey all family rules.

I was fine with that.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Funny story - but I know some parents who think that, e.g., forcing their kids to go to church is Satan's plan.

I don't think that. I plan on saying what my parents said: in our family we go to church, it is a rule - someday you will be an adult and leave our family, and you can make your own decisions. In the meantime, we expect you to obey all family rules.

I was fine with that.

We tell our kids that they have free agency when it comes to attending church. They can attend happily or they can attend grumpily.

[byu71]

We tell our kids that they have free agency when it comes to attending church. They can attend happily or they can attend grumpily.

LOL When I was sixteen and wanted to play baseball on Sunday my Dad said no. I told him, what about free agency. Not having it is Satan's plan.

His reply was you are right. You are free to go. I am also free to exercise my free agency and not let you drive my car.

[grapevine]

Christ never had a plan Elohim didn't need a plan from his children on how to be saved. He asked whom should I send and Christ did the will of the father he never had a plan. Lucifer thought he had a better idea.

Also Satan promised universal salvation not forced righteousness. A McConkie wrote a good book on that subject. In his family you went to church willingly or unwillingly.

God never gave us the right to do evil. Does the law give us the right to shoplift? There is oppurtunity and consequenses. There are always rules for agency. Lucifer offered universal salvation that is promised in some Protestant churches and Christ offered to do the will of the father.

[Indy Coug]

There is a CUF thread somewhere that demonstrated the term "free agency" is not unique to Mormonism and also pre-dates the church (I think).

[wuapinmon]

Why do well-versed Mormons still use the term "free agency"? It's not in the scriptures anywhere and really isn't part of Mormon doctrine. The Mormon concept of "Agency" has been very much abused and misstated in the Mormon culture.

This is not correct. Free will = Free agency

There is a CUF thread somewhere that demonstrated the term "free agency" is not unique to Mormonism and also pre-dates the church (I think).

This is correct, though we do get reminded that our 'agency' is not 'free' by the literalists.

[LA Ute]

Why do well-versed Mormons still use the term "free agency"? It's not in the scriptures anywhere and really isn't part of Mormon doctrine. The Mormon concept of "Agency" has been very much abused and misstated in the Mormon culture.

Take a look here. All that is missing is the word "free" but the concept is pretty clear.

Examples:

Moses 4:3

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

Moses 7: 32

32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

[LA Ute]

I disagree that the concept is clear to many Mormons; they confuse the Mormon doctrine of "agency" and "freedom" often in the very way that Oak's describes in my post above.

I stand by my earlier post:

I think you have a heavy lift here. What do you think is the proper interpretation of the scriptures I linked to on agency- especially when they are read in conjunction with 2 Nephi 2 (opposition in all things)? Example:

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

In light of that verse alone I don't see how you can say that free agency is not a doctrine of the Church. The term itself is not in the scripture but it is really just shorthand for the principles discussed in the scriptures.

[LA Ute]

I never stated that nor even implied it. Please go back and read my posts carefully, and note the distinction between "concept" and "term". My comment was about the use of the "term".




Yes, but use of the term "free agency" has also led to abuse of the Mormon concept of "agency" for various reasons. Oak's article I linked above describes well how folks confuse "agency" and "freedom". It's better not to use the term "free agency" in the context of Mormonism because agency in Mormonism has to do with choices between good and evil...in that context "free" is superlative and imputes an improper emphasis to the concept.

Consider this statement from Chirstofferson of the Seventy:



Interestingly enough, parts of this same address appear in the June 2009 issue of the Ensign:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...100000176f620a____

Even more recent Church materials avoid using "free agency" in preference to "agency".

Your point is much clearer now, but I don't understand how you see it as such a big problem. Elder Christofferson clearly says the use of the term "free agency" is not wrong, but that it is more accurate to refer to "moral agency." Elder Oaks uses the term throughout his talk, and simply seems to be saying free agency should not be confused with freedom. You claim the term is being abused in Mormon culture. How?

[wuapinmon]

Your point is much clearer now, but I don't understand how you see it as such a big problem. Elder Christofferson clearly says the use of the term "free agency" is not wrong, but that it is more accurate to refer to "moral agency." Elder Oaks uses the term throughout his talk, and simply seems to be saying free agency should not be confused with freedom. You claim the term is being abused in Mormon culture. How?

I think his arguments are a bunch of semantical bulleuphemism. If he wants to play cute or coy.......nevermind. From previous experience, he's in love with the sound of his own keyboard.