John Taylor 1886 Revelation

[Clark Addison]

I am a little hesitant, knowing where it may end up, to start a thread on polygamy, but I have decided to throw caution into the wind.

I am far from an expert on polygamy and Mormon fundamentalists, but my impression is that they claim to derive their authority, or at least their justification, from an 1886 prophecy of John Taylor, in which he says, among other things:

My son John: You have asked me concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant and how far it is binding upon my people.

Thus saith the Lord All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name unless they are revoked by me or by my authority and how can I revoke an everlasting covenant.

For I the Lord am everlasting and my covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with; but they stand forever.

I had a couple of questions about this.

1. Is this generally accepted, inside and outside the Church, as being authentically from John Taylor? Wikipedia says that Heber J Grant "recognized the 1886 Revelation by John Taylor to be in his own handwriting, [but] he denounced it due to the fact that it was not in the archives of the church at the time of his official acknowledgment." Is this the position of the Church? Or do they not recognize it? Or do they have no position?

2. Are there any scholars, historians, apologists, or others who feel that this is not about polygamy?

As an aside, I always find it strange when I am reminded that less than 40 years ago the President of the Church was raised in a polygamous household.

[Indy Coug]

I would follow up with some more questions:

Does the New and Everlasting Covenant require everyone to enter into polygamous unions?

Does the temporary prohibtion of new polygamous unions render the remainder of the New and Everlasting Covenant null and void?

[mtnbiker]

Not sure I want to stick my toe in the water here, but I prefer to go by this in Jacob 2:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

So it seems to me that the standard is 1 wife (and 1 husband), unless extreme conditions exist and (temporary) commandments given.

[Jacob]

I am a little hesitant, knowing where it may end up, to start a thread on polygamy, but I have decided to throw caution into the wind.

I am far from an expert on polygamy and Mormon fundamentalists, but my impression is that they claim to derive their authority, or at least their justification, from an 1886 prophecy of John Taylor, in which he says, among other things:



I had a couple of questions about this.

1. Is this generally accepted, inside and outside the Church, as being authentically from John Taylor? Wikipedia says that Heber J Grant "recognized the 1886 Revelation by John Taylor to be in his own handwriting, [but] he denounced it due to the fact that it was not in the archives of the church at the time of his official acknowledgment." Is this the position of the Church? Or do they not recognize it? Or do they have no position?

2. Are there any scholars, historians, apologists, or others who feel that this is not about polygamy?

As an aside, I always find it strange when I am reminded that less than 40 years ago the President of the Church was raised in a polygamous household.

Is there any other known direct revelation that John Taylor received? If not, shouldn't that cast some doubt as to this one? Especially considering that he apparently didn't really share it with the church or its leaders?

[UtahDan]

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

What do people think is meant by "raise up seed?" What do we imagine those conditions are?

[Pheidippides]

Not sure I want to stick my toe in the water here, but I prefer to go by this in Jacob 2:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

So it seems to me that the standard is 1 wife (and 1 husband), unless extreme conditions exist and (temporary) commandments given.

Given that I am of the view that polygamy (which herein means polyandry and all that other stuff too) was a human mistake and not a divinely appointed temporary social construct, I always wondered how the early saints squared the practice with Jacob 2. Jacob 2 always seemed pretty clear to me, and it runs slap in the face of the idea that polygamy is an eternal principle and all of that.

[falafel]

What do people think is meant by "raise up seed?" What do we imagine those conditions are?

I can't think of a quicker way to create a population boom (and therefore reinforce a fledgling religion) than to institute polygamy.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I can't think of a quicker way to create a population boom (and therefore reinforce a fledgling religion) than to institute polygamy.

Especially if there were not enough men to sow the seeds

[Indy Coug]

I can't think of a quicker way to create a population boom (and therefore reinforce a fledgling religion) than to institute polygamy.

That assumes you can successfully recruit a significant gender imbalance of converts and/or tweak your reproductive abilities to produce an inordinate number of female offspring.

Otherwise, it's largely a zero-sum game.

[falafel]

That assumes you can successfully recruit a significant gender imbalance of converts and/or tweak your reproductive abilities to produce an inordinate number of female offspring.

Otherwise, it's largely a zero-sum game.

The "two elders can't teach a single sister" rule was not in effect at that time.

[Indy Coug]

Does the church publish demographic statistics anywhere; specifically age and gender groupings?

[mtnbiker]

What do people think is meant by "raise up seed?" What do we imagine those conditions are?

I can't think of a quicker way to create a population boom (and therefore reinforce a fledgling religion) than to institute polygamy.

This doesn't answer those questions, but I have great grandfathers on each side who were polygamists. One was somewhat understandable - he ended up marrying 2 sisters of his first wife after they were widowed, and also married the widow of a good friend. So assuming a higher percentage of men died early (or fell away from the church and abandoned their families (was that ever an issue?)), I can see polygamy as a way of ensuring (hopefully) that those in desperate straits are cared for. Not that their needs couldn't be met without the marriage part, but it would tend to reinforce the issue. My great grandfather had more children with the wives. I'm descended from one of the widowed sisters.

On the other side of the family, I'm descended from the 2nd wife. From what I've heard, the first wife was very jealous, and the 1st family got the new things, better treatment, nicer house, etc., while the 2nd family basically got hand-me-downs. I don't know why my great grandmother agreed to it, but she was certainly a saint for what she put up with.

I would never want to be in that position.

[SoonerCoug]

John Taylor Obituary from New York Times

PRESIDENT TAYLOR DEAD

THE MORMON CHURCH LEFT WITHOUT A HEAD

ITS CHIEF A FUGITIVE FROM JUSTICE BREATHES HIS LAST HIDDEN AWAY FROM PRYING EYES.

Salt Lake City, July 26.--John Taylor, President of the Mormon Church, died at either o'clock last night, aged 78 years 8 months adn 25 days. The place of his death is not known, he having been a fugitive from justice since March, 1885. The Morning Herald, a Mormon paper, did not announce his death, nor did the Tribune, the Gentile organ. Reporters on the latter paper were told as late as 11 o'clock last night by the attending physician, that Taylor was very low, and every one connected with the Mormon Church refused to state whether he was dead or not. Even as late as 3 PM today it was impossible to obtain definite information regarding his death.

The Deseret News, the official organ of the Mormon Church, cme out at 6 o'clock tonight with turned column rules with an announcement of the death signed by George Q. Cannon and Joseph A. Smith. President Taylor was supposed to have died somewhere near Salt Lake City, but no one outside of a chosen few, even among the Mormons, knew exactly where. The Deseret News does not say where he died. The funeral services will be conducted at teh big tabernacle on Friday at 12 o'clock noon. The body is to lie in state in that building from 7 AM to 11:30 AM when the public will be permitted to view the remains. Just how long he was ill or what disease he died of, the News does not state. George Q. Cannon and Joseph A. Smith in their article say:

"President John Taylor has been killed by the cruelty of officials who have in this Territory misrepresented the Government of the United States. There is no room to doubt that if he had been permitted to enjoy the comforts of home, the ministrations of his familiy, the exercise to which he had been accustomed, but of which he was deprived, he might ahve lived for many years yet. His blood stains the clothes of the men who with intense hate have offered rewards for his arrest and have hounded him to his grave."

John Taylor's successor will probably not be appointed for some months. Joseph A. Smith, the nephew of Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, will probably be the next President. It is not easy to tell the effect on the church.

John Taylor, the third President of the Mormon Church has had, was born in Millthorpe, Westmoreland County, England, Nov. 1. 1808. His parents owned a small estate at teh villiage of Hale, in that county. They were members of the Church of England, and he was brought up in the 'doctrines of that church until he was 15 years old. He then joined the Methodists and was soon after appointed a local preacher, and continued as such until he left England, about the ear 1828 or 1829. He went to Toronto, Canada, and Joined the Mormon Church in 1835.

In 1837, during a visit of Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, and T.B. March to Toronto, Elder Taylor was ordained a high priest. He paid several visits to teh Temple at Kirtland, Ohio, and was designated by "revelation" in 1836 for the Apostleship, by request of the so-called prophet, Joseph Smith. He removed to Kirtland, and subsequently to Missouri. He was called on a mission to England in the Fall of 1839, reaching Liverpool on Jan. 11, 1840. He was the first man to preach Mormonism in Ireland and on the Isle of Man. His labors also extended to scotland. He returned to Nauvoo in January, 1841, and edited the last three volumes of the "Times and Seasons," and also edited and published the Nauvoo Neighbour.

In Nauvoo, he was a member of the City Council, one of the Regents of the Nauvoo University, and Judge-Advocate of the Legion....blah blah blah.

Last paragraph... (I'm tired of typing and his bio is getting boring.)

He is credited wiht having eight wives and innumerable children. He was indicted by the Grand Jury in March, 1885, for unlawful cohabitation with four wives, but having got wind of the intention to indict him, he fled on Feb. 1, 1885, and had ever since been in exile. The Salt Lake Daily Tribune, the Gentile organ here, will say tomorrow: "It is but fair to record what he did, and to add the manifest fact that his life work was a grievous failure. He left his people harassed and troubled, and tossed about even as a dismantled ship is tossed when left to the buffeting of pitiless storms and confused seas. We are saying nothing of his convictions except that assuming him to be entirely sincere and devout, his teachings were sinister and his life work was a dreary failure."

Too bad the Trib has mellowed so much over the years.

[LA Ute]

I love polygamy threads. I positively heart them.

:igiveup:

[UtahDan]

I can't think of a quicker way to create a population boom (and therefore reinforce a fledgling religion) than to institute polygamy.

That is true if there are more women than men, but in the case of the church exactly the opposite was the case.