Honor Code point about excess demand for BYU

[jay santos]

I think Oxcoug made this point orginally and it was something I hadn't really thought of, but it really is a brilliant point that IMHO completely negates this point for Honor Code expulsions. I'd locate the quote and respond in that thread but too lazy.

From Elder Ballad's granddaughter allegedly:

http://www.cougarboard.com/noframes/...tml?id=5525465

I home teach the grand daughter of elder ballard and asked her what his take on the code is. she told me that there are so many people that are qualified and want to get in to byu, that they have to turn away so many that would live the honor code. that is the reason for getting kicked out for serious sins.

of course they want the person to be successful and to repent, but if you are going to sign and promise not to do things like have sex before marriage, you only have your self to blame if you do it. and it isnt fair that you get to stay in, getting the tithing money of the church to pay for your education when there are others waiting in line who will abide by the rules.

The reason this is a false argument is that the people who break the Honor Code do not come to BYU with the intention to break the Honor Code. People that come to BYU are the very best students BYU can find with respect to what BYU's goals for its student body is. It has to be by definition, because BYU selects them. If the incoming freshman class is 8,000 students and 10% of them will end up committing expulsion worthy offenses, it's not like you knew the 10% ahead of time. And it's not like there are a replacement 800 kids out there who ALL will stay worthy of these offenses. The new replacements will still break the Honor Code at the same rate.

[All-American]

I dunno, your point would probably be more credible if it came from a better source, like the grandchild of a more senior apostle, or lacking that, the CHILD of an apostle. Or a seventy. (How exactly does one gauge pseudo-authority? I'm guessing Richard Hinckley didn't gain any more authoritative weight when he was made a Seventy than he already had as the boss's kid. Somebody needs to publish a chart or something that shows how much authority you wield by being generationally linked to a church authority compared with an actual but lesser church authority. I'm thinking something like a graph where one axis is your proximity to an authority and the other is the position of said authority.)

[jay santos]

I dunno, your point would probably be more credible if it came from a better source, like the grandchild of a more senior apostle, or lacking that, the CHILD of an apostle. Or a seventy. (How exactly does one gauge pseudo-authority? I'm guessing Richard Hinckley didn't gain any more authoritative weight when he was made a Seventy than he already had as the boss's kid. Somebody needs to publish a chart or something that shows how much authority you wield by being generationally linked to a church authority compared with an actual but lesser church authority. I'm thinking something like a graph where one axis is your proximity to an authority and the other is the position of said authority.)

Yeah the link to the grandchild was kind of a joke. It was just to outline the argument, which is a common argument you hear nearly every time criticism of Honor Code expulsion comes up.

[pellegrino]

Yeah the link to the grandchild was kind of a joke. It was just to outline the argument, which is a common argument you hear nearly every time criticism of Honor Code expulsion comes up.

This line of reasoning is brought up every time there is a debate about the punishments for HC violations. Whether or not an apostle said it is irrelevant, it's a weak argument in favor of severe punishments.

[Eddie]

I dunno, your point would probably be more credible if it came from a better source, like the grandchild of a more senior apostle, or lacking that, the CHILD of an apostle. Or a seventy. (How exactly does one gauge pseudo-authority? I'm guessing Richard Hinckley didn't gain any more authoritative weight when he was made a Seventy than he already had as the boss's kid. Somebody needs to publish a chart or something that shows how much authority you wield by being generationally linked to a church authority compared with an actual but lesser church authority. I'm thinking something like a graph where one axis is your proximity to an authority and the other is the position of said authority.)

I think Grapevine has a chart like this. You'll have to check with him.

[creekster]

This line of reasoning is brought up every time there is a debate about the punishments for HC violations. Whether or not an apostle said it is irrelevant, it's a weak argument in favor of severe punishments.

Besides, if someone gets kicked out in say the junior year, do they increase the size of the freshman class? Do they look for some second semster junior who is dying to transfer, finally, to BYU?