People like to Hillary when an athlete gets kicked out or someone else of breaking the honor code of how unjust it is and the like. People knew what they did when they signed the honor code. There are many people that don't keep the HC after gettinc accepted. Is it fair to those that do not get accepted? Here is what Garth Hall said at BYUIDAHO about how it is not a hospital need to be in good standing to go there and some of the consequences are not punishments.
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This part bothers me, Grape. I just don't understand at all why someone who wants to repent of a transgression (like premarital sex) needs to be kicked out of college in order to repent. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Many of our systems in the university are designed to protect these important standards. When a student is dismissed, most of us have been conditioned to feel that the student is being punished, but it is really just the opposite. Certain issues of repentance can be better accomplished away from campus. However, in all we do as students, faculty, mentors, and friends, we must always use the example of the Savior to act in love, mutual respect, and shared responsibility. In making judgments of circumstances where others are involved, we must always consider first, saving souls; second, protecting others; and third. protecting the integrity of the Church and BYU-Idaho.
As we have taught these principles in our Student Living program, there was a young woman who took them to heart. She became aware of her good friend and roommate’s problem of a serious sin. They confided, talked, and cried together. Finally, she counseled her roommate to go to the bishop. Reluctantly, the roommate went and confessed. The bishop, as a common judge, held a disciplinary council, and this wonderful sister was disfellowshipped and had to withdraw from school. The young woman that encouraged her to go to her bishop felt guilty. She said, “I encouraged her to go the bishop, but I didn’t want that to happen.”
When he says, "Certain issues of repentance can be better accomplished away from campus" what is he talking about? I just don't get it.
It seems like the LDS University environment, with a lot of great role models and LDS friends along with the opportunity to continue to advance your education is the ideal environment for repentance. -
Reading that strengthened my resolve to never send one of my kids to BYUI. Do any of you know someone who actually got disfellowshipped for premarital sex (c'mon, you know that's what he was referring to) at BYU Provo? I knew several people who confessed sexual sin during their time in Provo and none of them was disfellowshipped or for that matter even subjected to a church court. Some were subjected to the HC enforcement people but in the end all got to stay and work out their issues.Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
I also hate the argument that people who break the honor code are cheating those who didn't get in. This argument pre-supposes that those who didn't get in were absolutely going to keep the code without messing up. Select your student body the best way you know how and then help them if/when they make mistakes. There is nothing Christlike about booting them out and telling them they're better off repenting at home.Comment
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I think this illustrates how messy things get when a university gets into the business of morality. I really wish that BYU et al would get back to the mission of education. How cool would it be to have a church-sponsored university whose mission was to (gasp!) educate, regardless of affiliation or standing in the church?At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10Comment
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It's the struggle between Godly and worldly sorrow. Let's just say that I kept something bottled up inside while I was there, needlessly, because of the fear of temporal consequences for a spiritual failure. Even though I eventually faced the music while enrolled, I carried around baggage that could've been checked much sooner. I'm not the only one. It's even worse, I would imagine, if you're an employee. Imagine not repenting of something grievous because you knew it would make you lose your job, uprooting your family, all because of a temporal consequence of a spiritual failing. For these reasons, I have politely declined the back-channel invitations to apply for jobs there that I have received. I used to dream about going back. My outlook changed after the Katrina crucible.Originally posted by SteelBlue View Post
Also,
1. I'm not really the BYU type. Shorts and a guayabera year round don't cut it in Provo.
2. I would be truthful in my GA interview, and that would probably nix my chances.
3. The body of my CUF work would probably get me in Dutch with the administration.
4. I hate the cold.
5. I'm needed elsewhere."Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --SolonComment
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You are absolutely unreal. using Hillary as a synonym for bitch is really classy.Originally posted by grapevine View Post
Look the honor code is a piece of garbage and it is used in a way that reminds one of the bureaucracy in Catch-22. I have always loved the BYU institution, but the honor code in its breadth and enforcement is un-Christian and Pharisiacal.Comment
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The real issue though is that the majority of the church doesn't see it as un-Christian or Pharisiacal. In fact, most of the church members I know actually think it's a good idea. When those church members' tithing funds are going to pay for the school then it's probably a good thing (relatively speaking) they keep it in place.Originally posted by New Mexican Disaster View Post
Personally I like an honor code that emphasizes no cheating, being honest, and even living the commandments. But as noted in this thread, there needs to be mercy involved. Kids screw up, literally, and they should be given a chance and for the most part they are given a chance, at least in Provo. The church does need to drop the honor code office though and let the ecclesiastical endorsement suffice. Bishops tend to be more merciful then your average run of the mill HC employee.
There is definitely crap in the HC that is nonsensical like growing beards and limiting the length of shorts and setting curfews in off campus housing. There is enough guilt to go around on campus to keep most kids in line with those things anyway so they are not needed in the HC."Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. UchtdorfComment
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I would be interested to see if the majority do agree. That has not been my experience at all, especially living in Utah County.Originally posted by Eddie Jones View Post
The portions of the honor code that are more stringent than the temple interview ought to be stricken immediately. In particular the dress and grooming standards are a useless hassle.Comment
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That takes excellent balance.Originally posted by Eddie Jones View Post"Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --SolonComment
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I commend for you this Dialogue article about the Honor Code, which further convinces me that it is of man and not of God (p. 85–112, Ernest Wilkinson and the Transformation of the BYU Honor Code). Ernest Wilkinson was a crazy, crazy man. The Honor Code was all about suppressing Communism and Wilkinson's extreme fixation on dress and grooming. I suspect Wilkinson is largely responsible for our Mormon culture of uber-conservative dress and the reasons people get the stink eye at church for coming in shorts and a polo shirt."You know, I was looking at your shirt and your scarf and I was thinking that if you had leaned over, I could have seen everything." ~Trial Ad JudgeComment
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Most probably only disagree with the ticky tacky things like beards and such. I'd bet that most people agree the law of chastity and honesty should be in there. On that note, we probably are both saying the same thing as I very much agree with your second paragraph.Originally posted by New Mexican Disaster View Post
Some one told me once that you can't wear overalls at Ricks. Not that you would want to anyway (unless they are Girbaud shortalls) but stuff like that is just down right perplexing."Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. UchtdorfComment
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amen brother, amen. I have no desire in making my bishop the one who determines whether or not I have a job the following year.Originally posted by wuapinmon View PostDio perdona tante cose per un’opera di misericordia
God forgives many things for an act of mercyAlessandro Manzoni
Knock it off. This board has enough problems without a dose of middle-age lechery.
pelagiusComment
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Doesn't this seem to be a pretty compelling reason, even to a TBM (maybe especially), to NOT have an honor code? If you believe the bishop is important to the repentance process, why would you loss of employment to the list of fears stopping people from going to the bishop?Originally posted by pellegrino View PostAt least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10Comment
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This is a really interesting read. I'm a little struck at how active the Universe was in opposing the changes--that's not the Universe I remember. I liked their reaction to the "Pardon Me" campaign (pp. 94-95), particularly the "Does your wife realize you're doing this?" line. Wilkinson strikes me as a bit of a creepy old man. There are just a few too many comments on coed's bodies (eg, "she didn't have anything to show, just a couple of stilts").Originally posted by Mrs. Funk View PostAt least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10Comment
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