How much do we believe?

[KillerDog]

I think a person's belief in spiritual things ebbs and flows like the tide during the course of their lives. Sometimes you are willing and able to believe all that is taught to you about your spiritual self. Other times, you are loathe to believe that you have a spiritual self. Those extremely low tides have a tendency to result in people leaving their spiritual upbringing and, for some, they never return. As some of you know, I have been in one of those low tides for a few years now. Given the LDS culture and my wife's love for the LDS faith, I have continued as though I'm a true believer when in fact, I currently don't believe there is a God. Therefore, at this point in my life I would say that I believe <1%. How about each of you? How much do you believe? For sake of discourse, let's say you don't believe at all in the spiritual world as a <1% and you believe fully and completely in your faith as >99%. Where do you stand and, if relevant, how does the amount of belief you possess effect your life and your ability to honestly portray your inner thoughts and personal opinions to those around you?

[Indy Coug]

Disclaimer: This is wholly my opinion and it is intended to apply only to me. Please do not extrapolate.

My belief is close to 100%. It's my belief that keeps me active in church because there are a lot of things I'd rather be doing than pissing away a large portion of my would-be net income and free time if I didn't have a firm conviction what I was spending my time and money on was a correct and appropriate expenditure.

I was completely inactive in HS and even today I don't have a deep and abiding love for church attendance, daily scripture study, prayer, temple attendance, etc. and many of those things I fail to do with their prescribed regularity.

But I can't deny what I believe to be right and recognize that I am duty bound to live up (to some measure) to what I promised God I would do.

[KillerDog]

Disclaimer: This is wholly my opinion and it is intended to apply only to me. Please do not extrapolate.

My belief is close to 100%. It's my belief that keeps me active in church because there are a lot of things I'd rather be doing than pissing away a large portion of my would-be net income and free time if I didn't have a firm conviction what I was spending my time and money on was a correct and appropriate expenditure.

I was completely inactive in HS and even today I don't have a deep and abiding love for church attendance, daily scripture study, prayer, temple attendance, etc. and many of those things I fail to do with their prescribed regularity.

But I can't deny what I believe to be right and recognize that I am duty bound to live up (to some measure) to what I promised God I would do.

So, you believe that your belief drives your participation, correct? Do you feel you could/would change your participation if your belief ebbed? How would your answer to the previous question change if you believed the tide of your belief would rise again in the future?

[Indy Coug]

So, you believe that your belief drives your participation, correct?

In large part yes. The other part would be to provide a suitable environment for my children to get a spiritual education and gain their own belief.

Do you feel you could/would change your participation if your belief ebbed?

It would suffer. I certainly wouldn't spend the 11 hours I just spent yesterday with various and sundry meetings and activities.

How would your answer to the previous question change if you believed the tide of your belief would rise again in the future?

I don't know.

[Shaka]

I once had a very powerful spiritual experience that solidified my believe. It was life altering and couldn't be mistaken for some random endorphin that was released at a strategic time.

With that said I believe a lot of what many LDS (and religious folks in general) take as literal as symbolic. I have also had to make a few other concessions to make the gospel, as currently practiced, palatible to me.

[clackamascoug]

Given the LDS culture and my wife's love for the LDS faith, I have continued as though I'm a true believer when in fact, I currently don't believe there is a God.

You sound like the methodist Minister in Caddy Shack as he get's hit by lightning.

I'm all in. I've looked inside out, outside in, and I am not aware of a better lifestyle that proceeds with a purpose. I admit to being like Indy though, I'm not 100% in my vigilance. I enjoy Sacrament meeting most of the time, endure it others, Sunday School is to be avoided. HP group meeting I attend 1/2 of the time, as my clerk duties give me a chance to avoid boring lessons. I pay a full tithing because I believe in the principle of sacrifice, and have been the recipient of its blessings. At home we have family prayer 4/7 days, never have a family home evening, and generally strive to love one another. I watch TV on Sunday's, I drink Coke, and don't attend church on vacation. At the age of 50, I'm secure of my own water level and am comfortable with who and what I am.

I'm all in with the Restored Gospel, meaning regarding Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon. I think the general direction of the Church is fine, but I think it's just a mechanism to administer the ordinances, and that the "programs" of the church are mostly vehicles to guide the sheep in a general direction. I think BYU could tone it down a notch and be less pious.

I've had personal experiences that confirm my tendencies, and cannot deny them. Do I think I have an advantage over any other person who lives on the earth? No not really. Being a member may actually be a disadvantage as far as being accountable for your knowledge of right and wrong. After all, Its easier to repent at the end if you don't know it was wrong initially. Do I think non believers in God are in peril? No. The only perilous people are the ones that leave a heavy footprint on others.

[mUUser]

Difficult to answer in a few sentences.

A few examples of things taught that I don't believe:

I don't believe God intended for the Priesthood to be witheld from a worthy black man in these latter-days. I also don't understand why the priesthood should be witheld from a worthy woman. I wouldn't go so far as to say I don't believe it, but, I certainly don't understand it.

I also don't believe God intended for any man to practice polygamy in these latter-days.

I think the church leadership made major blunders in those two areas, and don't believe they were inspired decisions for the proper time and season, which is what we are taught. I don't believe it. There's other stuff too.

But, an example of something powerful that I do believe:

I do believe, however, much of what's taught as it relates to the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I believe we're children of a Heavenly Father, that he loves us, and provided a Savior, in Jesus Christ, to atone for our sins. This rings true to me. Further, I believe the LDS Church has the most comprehensive understanding of this doctrine, and to a large extent, this is why I continue to believe. Even having said that, however, I believe there's more to the Atonement than we've been taught. I believe there's additional "light and knowlege" that we'll receive, in that it is even more comprehensive than our current teachings.

There's other important teachings that I believe -- pre earthly existence where we had a relationship with the Father, a better and more compassionate understanding of "heaven" than most...etc...etc...

To answer the question -- what percent do I believe???? I don't know.

[Flystripper]

Kdog - I too have been in a low and have not attended much since the whole prop 8 campaign. We both had some doubts and issues prior to prop 8, but that whole episode acted as a catalyst to the flame. At least my wife and I are in the same place with our belief though. I would hate to have my doubt be a wedge in our relationship and threaten our family. I am grateful that we both happily doubt together...so to speak. I don't know if we will ever really head back to the fold, but I have learned to never say never. If you would have asked me at the end of my mission or on my wedding day if I would be where I am today vis-a-vis my faith I probably would have said its not possible.

All that being said, my wife and I are happily married and we continue to enjoy life out of church activity. Active Mormons might find it shocking, but currently we are quite content.

[KillerDog]

Kdog - I too have been in a low and have not attended much since the whole prop 8 campaign. We both had some doubts and issues prior to prop 8, but that whole episode acted as a catalyst to the flame. At least my wife and I are in the same place with our belief though. I would hate to have my doubt be a wedge in our relationship and threaten our family. I am grateful that we both happily doubt together...so to speak. I don't know if we will ever really head back to the fold, but I have learned to never say never. If you would have asked me at the end of my mission or on my wedding day if I would be where I am today vis-a-vis my faith I probably would have said its not possible.

All that being said, my wife and I are happily married and we continue to enjoy life out of church activity. Active Mormons might find it shocking, but currently we are quite content.

I find many non-spiritual reasons to remain an active member of the Church. I think it is financially beneficial to a legal practice in Salt Lake City. I think it is socially valuable to belong to a group larger than yourself and don't have an interest in leaving the group I was raised in and understand, especially if I have to return at some time in the future due to a change in the tide of belief. It creates a social format for my kids and helps them have a place in the universe. That said, I believe that if my wife was willing to leave the Church, I would, at a minimum, go on sabbatical from attendance and the following of certain rules I find tiresome.

[Pheidippides]

It depends on what I'm supposed to "believe."

Belief in an afterlife, in God, in Jesus, in general New Testament-style theology (atonement, repentance, widows and orphans, etc.): 100%. This has never wavered at any part in my life.

Belief in core principles of Mormonism as a religion (i.e., Book of Mormon as a theological text, priesthood, First Vision): a bit less but pretty high. 95%, I'd say. Note that it was about 10% in law school.

It's been observed that I belong to the same church but not the same religion as many of my Mormon friends. This is an entirely fair and accurate statement. In another ward I'd have more difficulty. This ward is a bit of a utopia for me - while I'm sure many of the things I believe would shock a good chunk here, the leadership knows and appreciates my viewpoint.

[I.J. Reilly]

It's been observed that I belong to the same church but not the same religion as many of my Mormon friends. This is an entirely fair and accurate statement. In another ward I'd have more difficulty. This ward is a bit of a utopia for me - while I'm sure many of the things I believe would shock a good chunk here, the leadership knows and appreciates my viewpoint.

I've seen you make statements like this several times, but I've never actually seen you hoist anything up that you believe that would be so radical as to shock a good chunk here. In fact, I would say that just about anything you've posted about in regards to religion on here I could repeat in my ward in the heart of Utah County and I would get very little push back.

Perhaps I'm not all that observant, or maybe I'm not fastidious enough in my niku-religion-post stalking (what am I doing wrong, vb? If I enter in that I want to be notified every post that niku makes in the forum or that includes the words, "mormon" "church" "religion" or "belief" why am I not getting the results? ).

Not trying to be contradictory, just wondering what you mean. If you'd prefer to PM me about it, have at it.

[Goatnapper'96]

I think a person's belief in spiritual things ebbs and flows like the tide during the course of their lives. Sometimes you are willing and able to believe all that is taught to you about your spiritual self. Other times, you are loathe to believe that you have a spiritual self. Those extremely low tides have a tendency to result in people leaving their spiritual upbringing and, for some, they never return. As some of you know, I have been in one of those low tides for a few years now. Given the LDS culture and my wife's love for the LDS faith, I have continued as though I'm a true believer when in fact, I currently don't believe there is a God. Therefore, at this point in my life I would say that I believe <1%. How about each of you? How much do you believe? For sake of discourse, let's say you don't believe at all in the spiritual world as a <1% and you believe fully and completely in your faith as >99%. Where do you stand and, if relevant, how does the amount of belief you possess effect your life and your ability to honestly portray your inner thoughts and personal opinions to those around you?

I believe it all. At least how I define "it all." I think it is conceivable and likely that mistakes were made and are still being made. I don't really care to document which ones I personally believe those are so that I can sound open-minded and all that shit. I think it is counterproductive to spend my time on whatever percentage of it I think is batshit crazy. I enjoy my belonging to a religious organization and enjoy serving in the Church. Flat out I think it is groovy and am convinced my involvement is a great source of joy. I also like that mormon gals love to get the falsies! I would put myself within the TBM, at least in my opinion.

[SeattleUte]

I believe it all. At least how I define "it all." I think it is conceivable and likely that mistakes were made and are still being made. I don't really care to document which ones I personally believe those are so that I can sound open-minded and all that shit. I think it is counterproductive to spend my time on whatever percentage of it I think is batshit crazy. I enjoy my belonging to a religious organization and enjoy serving in the Church. Flat out I think it is groovy and am convinced my involvement is a great source of joy. I also like that mormon gals love to get the falsies! I would put myself within the TBM, at least in my opinion.

Do you believe or wish? (Not attacking your faith or anything like that, just asking.)

[Pheidippides]

I've seen you make statements like this several times, but I've never actually seen you hoist anything up that you believe that would be so radical as to shock a good chunk here. In fact, I would say that just about anything you've posted about in regards to religion on here I could repeat in my ward in the heart of Utah County and I would get very little push back.

Perhaps I'm not all that observant, or maybe I'm not fastidious enough in my niku-religion-post stalking (what am I doing wrong, vb? If I enter in that I want to be notified every post that niku makes in the forum or that includes the words, "mormon" "church" "religion" or "belief" why am I not getting the results? ).

Not trying to be contradictory, just wondering what you mean. If you'd prefer to PM me about it, have at it.

It's a fair question. The devil is in the details, but here's an idea of some of the bigger points:

1. I am completely comfortable saying that church leaders (prophets included) have been wrong at times, and specifically with respect to polygamy, blacks-and-the-priesthood, and Adam-God theory.

2. I think the administration of the church, especially on a local level, is nonsensical. I am privately (meaning I don't talk to anybody but my wife about it, not wanting to stir the pot) critical of much of the localized leadership.

3. I think we've deemphasized certain doctrinal topics over the years in order to draw distinctions between us and other religions, and I think that's a mistake. I think we need to stop caring about caffeine in soda more than we do about the mission of Jesus - or at least mention Him a lot more. I keep mental count of how many times I hear the name of Christ or reference thereto outside of prayers/closing of talks, and it is precious few. I think we are in gross error for missing the forest for the trees.

4. I can answer all of the temple recommend questions "correctly" but I don't believe that all of them relate to eternal truths - see, e.g., my theoretical position on beer/wine.

5. I am a fan of better education as to the accurate and complete history of who we are, without hiding the ball without apology (as I think we've been wont to do in the past).

6. I don't think that works have a thing to do with salvation. I believe that it is all about grace. I believe if we truly have faith the works will follow as an evidence of belief in salvation. But not as a prerequisite for it.

7. I don't believe "the church is true." The church is a mechanism for me, a framework upon which the most correct doctrinal truth may be found perhaps, but not the end-all-be-all. I don't believe we have all the answers, either - I think we've been given a bunch of guidelines and the edict to do the most we can with them.

8. I take issue with the use of the phrase "I know" in testimony giving. I would never call somebody on it, because that's not my style and I value harmony over conflict in my real life, but I don't use that phrase (I'm a lawyer - semantics is my thing!).

9. I don't believe in modern revelation in that I don't believe that most of the way the church is run has anything to do with revealed will. I believe we are led by men - good men but fallible men - and that revelation isn't the guiding factor behind everything that happens. Don't read that to be as cynical as it sounds - I simply thing we're supposed to use our heads as much as we can.

10. If forced to pick a side, I'm pro-choice. Actually, I'm socially quite liberal (fiscally I'm very conservative - it's a hard reconciliation).

11. I don't hate Obama.

Those are just a few points. When I say that these things would shock people, I'm specifically thinking of my friends. This stuff would shock them precisely because they are my friends and they think they know me better than they do. Maybe they know me better than I think, though - I dunno. There's nothing there that would get me kicked out of the church, or at least I don't think so.

I don't view myself as an apostate from within, to be clear, or to be in the wrong place. But I am different from the mainstream, or at least what the mainstream appears to be. That makes me uncomfortable sometimes, and I have been in situations in different wards where I have very much felt that I don't belong in the same religion as the people who are talking.

I do enjoy my place in the church (I am considered very active), and I'm very grateful to no longer have anything to do with the administration thereof. Teaching primary is awesome because I have the chance to focus on the plain and simple things I do believe with kids who are excited to learn it.

[Goatnapper'96]

Do you believe or wish? (Not attacking your faith or anything like that, just asking.)

This is grasping at straws. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe they appeared to Joseph Smith. I believe I have had spiritual experiences that lead me to believe these things.

Further, I really enjoy it. Maybee that is because I believe that believing makes me happier.

I don't know if my belief is any different than somebody else's wishing. I can't speak for others but the time spent breaking down what somebody really means when they say "I believe" or "I know" gets ridiculous around here.

No you ask do I believe there were cureloms running around in BOM times. About as much as I belive Balaam's ass talked to him. I don't get all caught up in the literal part of scripture. I am content if in the end Job really had smelly ass sores or if it is just symbolic. I don't like the air of arrogance of well educated people patronizing the simple barbarians who believe literally- but that is just a personal issue. In search of truth, I hearken back to Professor Woot commenting that in his life the mistress of truth is a real bitch and doesn't bring him happiness. Given my druthers, I prefer happiness to being right. I believe that my belief in these metaphysical concepts and the service/involvement with the Church enriches my life and makes me happy.