El as "chief God" and YHWH as "patron deity of Israel."

[UtahDan]

From Faith-Promoting Rumor

http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2010/03/god-gods-and-sons-and-daughters-of-god-in-the-hebrew-bible-part-iii/

I'm not sophisticated enough to give this argument any critique, but the author lays out the idea that in ancient Israel El was seen as the chief of the Gods and that YHWH was the patron deity of Israel, which was one of 70 nations, each of whom had their own patron God (these patron Gods were the sons of El and his consort Ashera). Later YHWH's responsibility was expanded to all nations.

There seems to be support for the idea that ancient Israelites considered that there was a pantheon of Gods, though El and YHWH were the only two to whom they owed allegiance. As the author states, the idea of there being other Gods explains nicely all of the polemic we see against other Gods in the old testament as well as phrases like "the most high God," "greatest God" and "God of Gods."

[Katy Lied]

Are you sure that the Israelites were not referring to the pantheon of pagan gods? Even tho there was the god of corn, and the god of the water, and the god of domesticated animals, this pagan pantheon still had chief gods among them, most notably Ra, the sun god.

BTW, some speculate that Moses' egyptian name was Rameses, spelled Rmss and meaning "son of the Sun," and then when he converted to the God of the hebrews he cast off the part of his name referring to Ra and became simply Moses.

[Indy Coug]

BTW, some speculate that Moses' egyptian name was Rameses, spelled Rmss and meaning "son of the Sun," and then when he converted to the God of the hebrews he cast off the part of his name referring to Ra and became simply Moses.

Isn't the definition for Moses' adopted name in Exodus related to him being drawn out of the water? I've never read anything pro or con about the Exodus "definition" of Moses.

[Solon]

From Faith-Promoting Rumor

http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2010/03/god-gods-and-sons-and-daughters-of-god-in-the-hebrew-bible-part-iii/

I'm not sophisticated enough to give this argument any critique, but the author lays out the idea that in ancient Israel El was seen as the chief of the Gods and that YHWH was the patron deity of Israel, which was one of 70 nations, each of whom had their own patron God (these patron Gods were the sons of El and his consort Ashera). Later YHWH's responsibility was expanded to all nations.

There seems to be support for the idea that ancient Israelites considered that there was a pantheon of Gods, though El and YHWH were the only two to whom they owed allegiance. As the author states, the idea of there being other Gods explains nicely all of the polemic we see against other Gods in the old testament as well as phrases like "the most high God," "greatest God" and "God of Gods."

I think most scholars will agree that ancient Israel was polytheistic and that strict monotheism was introduced (and retroactively imposed on scripture) by leaders in Josiah's time. The archaeology basically confirms this. Don't forget about Asherah, Jehovah/Ba'al's consort.

[UtahDan]

Are you sure that the Israelites were not referring to the pantheon of pagan gods? Even tho there was the god of corn, and the god of the water, and the god of domesticated animals, this pagan pantheon still had chief gods among them, most notably Ra, the sun god.

BTW, some speculate that Moses' egyptian name was Rameses, spelled Rmss and meaning "son of the Sun," and then when he converted to the God of the hebrews he cast off the part of his name referring to Ra and became simply Moses.

No I'm not sure, but read the article. He covers that point.

EDIT: Here is a paragraph you might find interesting.

Such texts confirm that the majority of ancient Israelites believed there were other gods in existence besides YHWH. Moreover, this fact helps make sense of Deuteronomistic polemic against other gods, since there would be no need to try to discredit these deities so vehemently otherwise. Moreover, the fact that the biblical authors themselves believed that other deities were real and interacted with the world may be seen in such texts as 2 Kings 3. This text recounts a story in which the kings of Israel (in the north) and Judah (in the south), along with Edom, ally together to attack king Mesha of Moab after receiving a favorable prophecy of victory from the prophet Elisha (vv. 18-20). However, as they are pursuing after the fleeing Moabites, Mesha sacrificed his first-born son and “great wrath” came upon Israel and they withdrew to their own land. The text most naturally seems to indicate that the Moabite deity had some power or puissance that was claimed via human sacrifice.

[ERCougar]

My world history education is sorely lacking, so a few weeks ago, I bought a book on Amazon:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/History-Definitive-Visual-Civilization-Present/dp/075663119X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269447994&sr=8-3"]Amazon.com: History: The Definitive Visual Guide (From The Dawn of Civilization To The Present Day) (9780756631192): Adam Hart-Davis: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51c5umdSXWL.@@AMEPARAM@@51c5umdSXWL[/ame]

(highly recommended--stunning visual images and really engrossing reading. bought it as a coffee-table book/reference but have been reading it cover-to-cover)

Anyway, one of the points it makes about religion is that as civilizations became more organized, they went from sort of chaotic polytheistic god-for-everything systems to more organized structures with a supreme God (Zeus with the Greeks), paralleling the organization of their civilizations. Monotheism was as much a reflection of the structure of society as anything else.

[Green Lantern]

Anyway, one of the points it makes about religion is that as civilizations became more organized, they went from sort of chaotic polytheistic god-for-everything systems to more organized structures with a supreme God (Zeus with the Greeks), paralleling the organization of their civilizations. Monotheism was as much a reflection of the structure of society as anything else.

Does that help explain stories of one set of gods overthrowing another set of gods in various mythologies? Like the Olympians of Greece overthrowing the Titans? Solon, any idea on that?

[Solon]

Does that help explain stories of one set of gods overthrowing another set of gods in various mythologies? Like the Olympians of Greece overthrowing the Titans? Solon, any idea on that?

That looks like a cool book, ER.

Although they're not as pretty, I'll gladly mail you a desk-copy of a textbook if you ever want.

As for GL's question, I don't know enough about the origins of religion to really comment. I think that's more a question for anthropologists than historians. It is interesting that many cosmologies are based on bringing order out of chaos. Of course, it's always a succession of sons overthrowing fathers until someone breaks the cycle (or claims to have broken it). The Greek myths we have are almost certainly derived from Ancient NEar East versions since the greek ones were written down much later.

I wrote something about the comparative myths concerning sons overthrowing their fathers back on cougarguard.

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12194&

It's not the best thread; just ignore the shit.

[falafel]

That looks like a cool book, ER.

Although they're not as pretty, I'll gladly mail you a desk-copy of a textbook if you ever want.

Does this offer extend to other besides ER?

[Green Lantern]

I wrote something about the comparative myths concerning sons overthrowing their fathers back on cougarguard.

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12194&

It's not the best thread; just ignore the shit.

Thanks for the link. Interesting post and you definitely know how to write a catchy lede: "Should we worship Satan?" Man, who's not gonna read the rest of that? I love the Prometheus parallels throughout different cultures and find them endlessly fascinating.

[Solon]

Thanks for the link. Interesting post and you definitely know how to write a catchy lede: "Should we worship Satan?" Man, who's not gonna read the rest of that? I love the Prometheus parallels throughout different cultures and find them endlessly fascinating.

Yeah, I would probably tone down a lot of that stuff if I were writing it today. I don't mean to rile people up (anymore).

But I stand by the initial post. Prometheus is one of the greatest stories of all time. Aeschylus' Prometheus Bound is my favorite piece of ancient literature.

Eric Havelock wrote a book called The Crucifixion of the Intellectual Man where he casts the Prometheus figure as a scientist or philosopher or some other type of progressive ("Prometheus" means 'forethought' - and his brother "Epimetheus" means "afterthought) who is suppressed and clamped down by a society unwilling to hear what he has to say.

He wrote the book in response to the Atomic Age (1960), and what it meant that science might destroy humanity instead of save it, but it still remains an interesting read.

I very much admire Prometheus' defiance.

[Katy Lied]

I like the linkage between Prometheus and Lucifer, and see several parallels.

[UtahDan]

I don't mean to rile people up (anymore).

Alas.

[Green Lantern]

Yeah, I would probably tone down a lot of that stuff if I were writing it today. I don't mean to rile people up (anymore).

But I stand by the initial post. Prometheus is one of the greatest stories of all time. Aeschylus' Prometheus Bound is my favorite piece of ancient literature.

Eric Havelock wrote a book called The Crucifixion of the Intellectual Man where he casts the Prometheus figure as a scientist or philosopher or some other type of progressive ("Prometheus" means 'forethought' - and his brother "Epimetheus" means "afterthought) who is suppressed and clamped down by a society unwilling to hear what he has to say.

He wrote the book in response to the Atomic Age (1960), and what it meant that science might destroy humanity instead of save it, but it still remains an interesting read.

I very much admire Prometheus' defiance.

Graphic novelists Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey have continued the theme of seeing Lucifer as slightly Promethean figure. He doesn't necessarily try to bring great gifts to mankind, but he rejects God's rule as tyrannical and too authoritarian. At one point, tired of eons of ruling Hell (he considers it excessive punishment for his rebellion) he kicks everyone out, locks the gate and turns the key over to someone else and retires. He's a figure who represents free will and he criticizes God as being more of a dictator, with a pre-determined plan of sin and punishment.

[Solon]

Alas.

Funny. Seriously, though, I regret getting so huffy back in the day in that thread. When I wrote "ignore the shit" I meant my own stuff too.

Maybe I'm growing up. tooblue and chino and indy are alright (okay, I don't really know Chino since he's not over here).