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  • mytheology

    I had friends in high school who were shocked that I had no idea who some moderately obscure characters from the Book of Mormon were. I had mission companions who criticized me for never reading the scriptures. My retort was that it didn't matter much I read the scriptures if I couldn't communicate in Russian, so I was going to spend my mission studying Russian.

    I think the scriptures are remarkable because they are venerated, but I think they are overemphasized in our Church. I remember being shocked to see my roommates at BYU set their alarms for 6 AM every day to read the Book of Mormon. I didn't think it was necessarily a bad thing, but I never understood it. I may be less educated about Mormon theology than some of you scripture-reading folks, but I do enjoy talking about real issues instead of reading spam.

    The reason I started the post on the virgin birth was to explore reasonable versus supernatural explanations for the events we observe.

    Sometimes theology (what I like to call mytheology) seems like a never-ending loop of illogical explanations for the world around us.

    For example, in reference to the virgin birth I envision this series of actual events:

    1. Jesus was born out of wedlock
    2. Jesus was denigrated for being born out of wedlock.
    3. At some point, his followers contrived a story (perhaps unintentionally) that it must have been a virgin birth--by the spirit of God.
    4. Since Jesus was the son of God, this explanation for Jesus's birth out of wedlock is even better.
    5. Along comes Joseph Smith, and he develops a more enhanced explanation where Jesus was able to overcome mortality because his father had an immortal body. Being the son of a mortal woman made it possible for him to die.
    6. Brigham Young improves on Joseph Smith's version by suggesting that God had intercourse with Mary. This version is later retracted by others.

    Regarding the resurrection:

    1. Jesus is crucified. His followers are in disbelief.
    2. His body is put in a tomb.
    3. His body is taken from the tomb by some followers who want to protect his body. (It also could have been stolen by someone else.)
    4. Women think they see Jesus, when in fact it was someone who looked like Jesus. They may have even seen him in a dream and rumors begin to spread that they actually saw him in person.
    5. More Jesus sightings continue, akin to Elvis sightings.
    6. Jesus receives status of resurrected being in the minds of his followers.

    I love the doctrine of the resurrection. I think it's great. I believe in it on a certain level, but I find it completely unreasonable and strange. Why should it matter that he was resurrected? Why should his resurrection affect whether I am resurrected? It defies all logic. I wish I could get up in Church and ask the crowd to explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old, because they obviously get something that I don't.

    It all seems like a convoluted loop of fact mixed with mythology and rumors, and I fail to see the point. I guess it's just about our fear of death, but why can't God reveal enough detail to make things at least sound reasonable?
    Last edited by SoonerCoug; 03-18-2010, 10:51 PM.
    That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

    http://twitter.com/SoonerCoug

  • #2
    Everything miraculous in the Bible can be explained away. Everything. Three days of darkness? Solar eclipse. Daniel in the Lion's Den? Lion had just eaten massive meal and wasn't hungry. Methuselah living to be 864 years? The term "year" back then meant a month. Noah's flood? It was a regional flood and Noah just took domesticated animals on a barge boat. David vs. Goliath? David struck him in the windpipe or some other vulnerable spot. Miracle of fishes and loaves? As the tale was passed around, more and more people claimed to be part of the crowd, making it larger and larger. Jesus raised Lazurus from the dead? Lazurus was actually in a coma, not dead. Moses parting the Red Sea? The tide was out.

    You've taken two such miracles and explained them away.

    The scriptures are the records of people who have come before who have written of their experiences which lead them to conclude there is a God. People read the scriptures in search of the Identity of God, what he is like, how he is interested in the children of man. What he wants from us (how can we achieve some sort of reward for good behavior).

    Some of these biblical tales reasonate with us; some of them seem preposterous; some are justifications for murderous, wanton behavior; some of them are sad explanations for a hard life. I don't think the God that I believe in is the sum total of everything that has been written about Him.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
      It all seems like a convoluted loop of fact mixed with mythology and rumors, and I fail to see the point. I guess it's just about our fear of death, but why can't God reveal enough detail to make things at least sound reasonable?
      You want God to make the fact that he'll take your dead body, put your spirit back in it, and make it whole/living again sound reasonable? I believe many things in religious doctrine would never sound reasonable to us based on the fact that the only knowledge we have is limited to our experiences on earth.
      "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
        Everything miraculous in the Bible can be explained away. Everything. Three days of darkness? Solar eclipse. Daniel in the Lion's Den? Lion had just eaten massive meal and wasn't hungry. Methuselah living to be 864 years? The term "year" back then meant a month. Noah's flood? It was a regional flood and Noah just took domesticated animals on a barge boat. David vs. Goliath? David struck him in the windpipe or some other vulnerable spot. Miracle of fishes and loaves? As the tale was passed around, more and more people claimed to be part of the crowd, making it larger and larger. Jesus raised Lazurus from the dead? Lazurus was actually in a coma, not dead. Moses parting the Red Sea? The tide was out.

        You've taken two such miracles and explained them away.

        The scriptures are the records of people who have come before who have written of their experiences which lead them to conclude there is a God. People read the scriptures in search of the Identity of God, what he is like, how he is interested in the children of man. What he wants from us (how can we achieve some sort of reward for good behavior).

        Some of these biblical tales reasonate with us; some of them seem preposterous; some are justifications for murderous, wanton behavior; some of them are sad explanations for a hard life. I don't think the God that I believe in is the sum total of everything that has been written about Him.
        Nice post particularly the last paragraph which I wholeheartedly agree with.
        "Nobody listens to Turtle."
        -Turtle
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
          Everything miraculous in the Bible can be explained away. Everything. Three days of darkness? Solar eclipse. Daniel in the Lion's Den? Lion had just eaten massive meal and wasn't hungry. Methuselah living to be 864 years? The term "year" back then meant a month. Noah's flood? It was a regional flood and Noah just took domesticated animals on a barge boat. David vs. Goliath? David struck him in the windpipe or some other vulnerable spot. Miracle of fishes and loaves? As the tale was passed around, more and more people claimed to be part of the crowd, making it larger and larger. Jesus raised Lazurus from the dead? Lazurus was actually in a coma, not dead. Moses parting the Red Sea? The tide was out.

          You've taken two such miracles and explained them away.

          The scriptures are the records of people who have come before who have written of their experiences which lead them to conclude there is a God. People read the scriptures in search of the Identity of God, what he is like, how he is interested in the children of man. What he wants from us (how can we achieve some sort of reward for good behavior).

          Some of these biblical tales reasonate with us; some of them seem preposterous; some are justifications for murderous, wanton behavior; some of them are sad explanations for a hard life. I don't think the God that I believe in is the sum total of everything that has been written about Him.
          I endorse this too. I think there is a lot value to be found in the scriptures. Even if you are like Sooner and don't to see it as divine, there is certainly much else that still reflects wisdom and experience of those who came before.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
            Everything miraculous in the Bible can be explained away. Everything. Three days of darkness? Solar eclipse. Daniel in the Lion's Den? Lion had just eaten massive meal and wasn't hungry. Methuselah living to be 864 years? The term "year" back then meant a month. Noah's flood? It was a regional flood and Noah just took domesticated animals on a barge boat. David vs. Goliath? David struck him in the windpipe or some other vulnerable spot. Miracle of fishes and loaves? As the tale was passed around, more and more people claimed to be part of the crowd, making it larger and larger. Jesus raised Lazurus from the dead? Lazurus was actually in a coma, not dead. Moses parting the Red Sea? The tide was out.

            You've taken two such miracles and explained them away.

            The scriptures are the records of people who have come before who have written of their experiences which lead them to conclude there is a God. People read the scriptures in search of the Identity of God, what he is like, how he is interested in the children of man. What he wants from us (how can we achieve some sort of reward for good behavior).

            Some of these biblical tales reasonate with us; some of them seem preposterous; some are justifications for murderous, wanton behavior; some of them are sad explanations for a hard life. I don't think the God that I believe in is the sum total of everything that has been written about Him.
            Gee Katy, you're acting as if Sooner actually knows who or what those people or events were.
            Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

            For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

            Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
              The scriptures are the records of people who have come before who have written of their experiences which lead them to conclude there is a God.
              I think the scriptures are writings by people who are attempting to reconstruct their past and/or impart wisdom to future generations. There's a lot of "invented tradition" in there.

              With the exception of LDS Doctrine and Covenants, I very much doubt any of the scriptures were written as events unfolded.

              EDIT: The Pauline epistles also give a pretty good picture of contemporary Christianity, but they're a different sort of cat than the annalistic writings. I'd put the 'epistles' of the Book of Mormon into this category as well.
              Last edited by Solon; 03-18-2010, 06:44 AM.
              "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
              -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by myboynoah View Post
                Gee Katy, you're acting as if Sooner actually knows who or what those people or events were.
                I hope you don't think my post was attempting to explain Sooner's position on anything. It was just a thought instigated by something Sooner wrote. I was making the point that one can explain away anything that seems miraculous.

                Even today, an event can occur that one person thinks is a miracle and someone else thinks is hogwash. For example, this morning I saw a picture of the Virgin Mary burnt into my toast.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Solon View Post
                  I think the scriptures are writings by people who are attempting to reconstruct their past and/or impart wisdom to future generations.
                  I have a theory that hieroglyphics are just an ancient comic strip about a character named Sphinxy.
                  Visca Catalunya Lliure

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
                    I hope you don't think my post was attempting to explain Sooner's position on anything. It was just a thought instigated by something Sooner wrote. I was making the point that one can explain away anything that seems miraculous.

                    Even today, an event can occur that one person thinks is a miracle and someone else thinks is hogwash. For example, this morning I saw a picture of the Virgin Mary burnt into my toast.
                    I saw a picture of Jimmer hitting a game-winning three. I BELIEVE!!!
                    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
                      The reason I started the post on the virgin birth was to explore reasonable versus supernatural explanations for the events we observe.
                      What exactly does "supernatural" mean? I don't know if there is such a thing. There are certainly some things we don't understand or can't explain, but as far as Mormon doctrine goes, God has to follow the natural laws of the universe.

                      I know that many Christians ( any many Mormons) seem to need a wand waving God. For example, in the creation of man, but the way I see Mormon doctrine there is no magic wand waving.

                      I believe Talmage talked some about this in "Jesus the Christ". I think the way he put it was: Some miracle seemed to defy the laws of nature, but really they still followed a higher law above the common one that we perceive. I guess in that way it could be considered "super"-natural.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
                        Some of these biblical tales resonate with us; some of them seem preposterous; some are justifications for murderous, wanton behavior; some of them are sad explanations for a hard life. I don't think the God that I believe in is the sum total of everything that has been written about Him.
                        I have always expressed this thought as "All scriptures are not created equal."

                        It's our job to figure out which passages of scripture express divine truth and which passages are misleading or just completely false.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by beefytee View Post
                          What exactly does "supernatural" mean? I don't know if there is such a thing. There are certainly some things we don't understand or can't explain, but as far as Mormon doctrine goes, God has to follow the natural laws of the universe.

                          I know that many Christians ( any many Mormons) seem to need a wand waving God. For example, in the creation of man, but the way I see Mormon doctrine there is no magic wand waving.

                          I believe Talmage talked some about this in "Jesus the Christ". I think the way he put it was: Some miracle seemed to defy the laws of nature, but really they still followed a higher law above the common one that we perceive. I guess in that way it could be considered "super"-natural.
                          [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Noetic_Sciences"]Institute of Noetic Sciences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Edgar_Dean_Mitchell.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Edgar_Dean_Mitchell.jpg/170px-Edgar_Dean_Mitchell.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/c4/Edgar_Dean_Mitchell.jpg/170px-Edgar_Dean_Mitchell.jpg[/ame]
                          Everything in life is an approximation.

                          http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by beefytee View Post
                            God has to follow the natural laws of the universe.
                            Using this, explain how Jesus turned water into wine.

                            God doesn't have to follow natural laws. I've always thought miracles were really when natural laws were not followed.
                            "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eddie Jones View Post
                              God doesn't have to follow natural laws. I've always thought miracles were really when natural laws were not followed.
                              lol. The alternative sort of begs the question as to how miracles qualify as miraculous, huh?

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