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Jesus as Jehova and the Father

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  • Jesus as Jehova and the Father

    Sometime in the second or third century it dawned on Christians that the most sublime and attractive thing about Christ is that he was a God who suffered and died. (Volumes have been and could still be written on this aspect of Christ's persona and its resonance.) His appeal is in his dual humanity and divinity. Yet making him the Son of God threatened to detract from this sublime symbolism, perhaps reducing him to the greatest of prophets. So there ensued a lot of discussion culminating in bloodshed and even warfare over the nature of the godhead. For a while the ani-trinity movement held the upper hand in early Christianity, at least politically. Constatine's son Constantius was an Arian Christian; Arians were named after Presbyter Arius who like Mormons rejected the trinity, and contended that the Father and the Son were not the same personage. Pelagius was the same, which is why some Mormon mullahs like him so much.

    The contrary view held that this definition of the godhead devalued Jesus and threatenecd to take away what most appealed about Christianity. Ultimately, in one of history's most profound ironies, the Arian Visigoths killed Emperor Valens, an erstwhile ally and fellow Arian, in battle, which brought an end to the popularity of Arianism among Roman nobiltiy. Valens was the last Arian emperor.

    There's an excellent book called When Jesus Became God that discusses this history.

    I think in much the same way Mormons took a while to realize the implication of saying Jesus was the Son. Talmage apparently understood what early Christians came to realize--that the power of Christianity as an idea emanates from God being a suffering, incarnate God. Clearly if, as Talmage decided, Jesus is Jehova, the ancient Hebrews clear back to the patriarchs prayed to Jesus. The answer to this conundrum is the Trinity. The Trinity fits with the original idea of Christ as the Logos, which we see in the Gospel of John. Christ as God's manifestation on earth, the means by which God interfaces with humanity, which is why Logos has been translated into the Word of God as well. As we've discussed here, Mormonism doesn't have as elegantly contructed and refined a doctrine as it could have.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

  • #2
    I suppose that is one reason to like Pelagius. I also like him for his mad finance skills.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by creekster View Post
      I suppose that is one reason to like Pelagius. I also like him for his mad finance skills.
      It's true that the Mullah really do like me but I've found that I have crossover appeal: "Pelagius, adored by a wide cross-section."
      Last edited by pelagius; 11-17-2008, 12:00 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by creekster View Post
        I suppose that is one reason to like Pelagius. I also like him for his mad finance skills.
        It's why from the start I recognized Pelagius as a more indirect Tex.
        When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

        --Jonathan Swift

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        • #5
          SU, I don't think that one of pelagius' heresies was related to the trinity. I think he was pretty orthodox in this regard but I could be wrong (I am going off memory).

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          • #6
            Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
            It's why from the start I recognized Pelagius as a more indirect Tex.
            Hmm ... I predate Tex on cougarguard ... but other than that I am sure you are right.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by pelagius View Post
              SU, I don't think that one of pelagius' heresies was related to the trinity. I think he was pretty orthodox in this regard but I could be wrong (I am going off memory).
              I was going from memory too and you may be right.
              When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

              --Jonathan Swift

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              • #8
                Also, let me add that in a sense I agree with SU. From an aesthetic point of view I really like the trinity. I know most Mormons don't but I do. I think its the best solution (in terms of elegance) to really having three gods but preserving monotheism.

                Don't get me wrong. I don't have trouble with the Mormon view ... I accept it as closer to the truth even if it is less elegant in my eyes.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by pelagius View Post
                  Also, let me add that in a sense I agree with SU. From an aesthetic point of view I really like the trinity. I know most Mormons don't but I do. I think its the best solution (in terms of elegance) to really having three gods but preserving monotheism.

                  Don't get me wrong. I don't have trouble with the Mormon view ... I accept it as closer to the truth even if it is less elegant in my eyes.
                  Some hypothesize that Islam was an Arian offshoot. Whether this is literally true or not I think some of the same impulses drove both movements early on. It's interesting to me that reactions to Paul's Christianity within the greater Christian movement have shared so much in common in disparate places, including the fact that such offshoot movements tended to start and originally gain steam in the sticks. I think this is what Bloom alludes to in talking about JS's religious genius. He puts James the Just, Prespbyter Arius, Muhammad, and JS in the same general outlook.
                  When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                  --Jonathan Swift

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