The Untold Story

[I.J. Reilly]

I'm pretty sure we have discussed this movie here on CUF before, and heaven knows we have discussed the issue of blacks in the church ad nauseam, however, in the recent past I spent some time in a group with Margaret Young and Darius Gray and was able to ask a few questions and listen as they answered other's questions as well. I thought I might share some of what was said there with the CUF community.

First, however, a disclaimer: Any of the things that I have noted as quotes of either Young or Gray are their quotes, to the best of my ability. That is to say, I was taking notes longhand and I don't write as fast as they speak, so the quote may not be wholly accurate in places, but the idea remains the same and they represent my best attempt at accurately taking down what they said. Also, Young and Gray do not represent the church in any official capacity and their words are therefore not statements of the church, but are spoken as their opinion.

Young - "We still see the idea about the inferiority of blacks being taught. As recently as yesterday we received an email [from the religion department at BYU] asking why we didn't support the doctrine that blacks are under a curse."

Gray - "We have made 3 or 4 personal screenings [of the film] to certain Apostles at their request. Always we have received very positive responses from each of them."

When asked about their opinion on whether there will ever be an official apology by the church for the policy against giving the priesthood to blacks:

Young - "I don't ever see a formal apology happening. A repudiation, that is different."

Gray - "Look at the April 2006 Priesthood session. Watch what Pres. Hinckley had to say... We have had a poisoning of the well and we need to purify the well from within."

Young - "I am aware of at least one Apostle who is consistently and constantly repudiating that one man is lesser than another everywhere he goes."

When asked about how he could stay in the church, even when he was not able to receive the priesthood:

Gray - "I got on my knees and prayed [the night before my baptism]. I returned to my knees a second time and I got the clearest answer you could receive. It wasn't like maybe I thought I heard something or maybe my head was telling me something, it was as clear as anything you ever heard. And the answer said, 'This is the restored gospel, and you are to join.' No answer about the Priesthood, just that I was to join. So what would you do in that situation? I did the only thing I could and I was baptized." "Joining the church was the best decision I ever made."

He also spoke about a period of inactivity that he had in the church but how he was unable to stay away or keep the church away from him.

In the film, Gray asserts his belief that the Revelation did not come because of any political pressure. Gray and Young were asked about their thoughts on how much internal pressure from members and S.W. Kimball's belief that then Elder Benson would not make the change upon becoming President of the Church if he (Pres. Kimball) did not, played into President Kimball seeking and receiving the Revelation:

Gray - "I think all that came into play. I think the beauty of it is that Spencer Wooley Kimball actually did something, he prayed. Day after day. He also commissioned the twelve to do a study [on the subject] and they found no doctrinal or scriptural basis for it. President McKay also prayed about it but said that he received no answer on it. It is my personal belief, and this is just speculation, that President McKay did not have the ear for it...Perhaps the Spirit speaking to him urging him to pray was the answer he needed."

Young - "I would also add to that section 9 of the Doctrine and Covenants. When Oliver wished to translate but was told that he didn't study it out, perhaps this was the case with President McKay."

Gray - "What I know, and I choose my words carefully here, is that the priesthood ban was allowed by God as a test for how we will treat each other in the church. When that became too much of an impediment [to the growth of the church], through the direction of the Prophet, it was removed."

Anyways, thought I might share what I heard with the CUF community. It was a good event and I was glad to participate.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Very interesting. Thanks.

[I.J. Reilly]

A couple of other things that I wanted to note. Young was not very clear about the email received from the religion department. She did not say if it came from a department head, or a professor, or if it was just someone reporting something they thought had been taught in a religion class and then emailing asking why they didn't support that.

Also, I thought Gray's recounting of how he received his testimony was very much like Hopfrog's. No firm answer as to why certain things are, only a firm statement to take part in the church.

[DU Ute]

Also, I thought Gray's recounting of how he received his testimony was very much like Hopfrog's. No firm answer as to why certain things are, only a firm statement to take part in the church.

I had this same thought when I read this. Thanks for sharing.

[Goatnapper'96]

Gray - "What I know, and I choose my words carefully here, is that the priesthood ban was allowed by God as a test for how we will treat each other in the church. When that became too much of an impediment [to the growth of the church], through the direction of the Prophet, it was removed."

That is a really interesting thought. My perspective is more along the lines of Oliver Cowdry and not studying it out or as Young said "not having the ear to hear." But Brother Gray has undoubtedly studied the issue far more than I and he has far more experience to analyze the impact it had on the LDS Church/culture. He sees aspects I cannot.

I am inspired by how constructive they appear to be.

[byu71]

I'm pretty sure we have discussed this movie here on CUF before, and heaven knows we have discussed the issue of blacks in the church ad nauseam, however, in the recent past I spent some time in a group with Margaret Young and Darius Gray and was able to ask a few questions and listen as they answered other's questions as well. I thought I might share some of what was said there with the CUF community.

First, however, a disclaimer: Any of the things that I have noted as quotes of either Young or Gray are their quotes, to the best of my ability. That is to say, I was taking notes longhand and I don't write as fast as they speak, so the quote may not be wholly accurate in places, but the idea remains the same and they represent my best attempt at accurately taking down what they said. Also, Young and Gray do not represent the church in any official capacity and their words are therefore not statements of the church, but are spoken as their opinion.

Young - "We still see the idea about the inferiority of blacks being taught. As recently as yesterday we received an email [from the religion department at BYU] asking why we didn't support the doctrine that blacks are under a curse."

Gray - "We have made 3 or 4 personal screenings [of the film] to certain Apostles at their request. Always we have received very positive responses from each of them."

When asked about their opinion on whether there will ever be an official apology by the church for the policy against giving the priesthood to blacks:

Young - "I don't ever see a formal apology happening. A repudiation, that is different."

Gray - "Look at the April 2006 Priesthood session. Watch what Pres. Hinckley had to say... We have had a poisoning of the well and we need to purify the well from within."

Young - "I am aware of at least one Apostle who is consistently and constantly repudiating that one man is lesser than another everywhere he goes."

When asked about how he could stay in the church, even when he was not able to receive the priesthood:

Gray - "I got on my knees and prayed [the night before my baptism]. I returned to my knees a second time and I got the clearest answer you could receive. It wasn't like maybe I thought I heard something or maybe my head was telling me something, it was as clear as anything you ever heard. And the answer said, 'This is the restored gospel, and you are to join.' No answer about the Priesthood, just that I was to join. So what would you do in that situation? I did the only thing I could and I was baptized." "Joining the church was the best decision I ever made."

He also spoke about a period of inactivity that he had in the church but how he was unable to stay away or keep the church away from him.

In the film, Gray asserts his belief that the Revelation did not come because of any political pressure. Gray and Young were asked about their thoughts on how much internal pressure from members and S.W. Kimball's belief that then Elder Benson would not make the change upon becoming President of the Church if he (Pres. Kimball) did not, played into President Kimball seeking and receiving the Revelation:

Gray - "I think all that came into play. I think the beauty of it is that Spencer Wooley Kimball actually did something, he prayed. Day after day. He also commissioned the twelve to do a study [on the subject] and they found no doctrinal or scriptural basis for it. President McKay also prayed about it but said that he received no answer on it. It is my personal belief, and this is just speculation, that President McKay did not have the ear for it...Perhaps the Spirit speaking to him urging him to pray was the answer he needed."

Young - "I would also add to that section 9 of the Doctrine and Covenants. When Oliver wished to translate but was told that he didn't study it out, perhaps this was the case with President McKay."

Gray - "What I know, and I choose my words carefully here, is that the priesthood ban was allowed by God as a test for how we will treat each other in the church. When that became too much of an impediment [to the growth of the church], through the direction of the Prophet, it was removed."

Anyways, thought I might share what I heard with the CUF community. It was a good event and I was glad to participate.

"The Untold Story". Is this a movie or documentary. I saw one on PBS a while ago and I think it was called The Mormons and the Blacks or something like that. It was great. I had no idea the kind of faith the blacks in the church had exhibited before the Priesthood was restored to them.

I don't doubt there are still lingering prejudices out there. Much to the dismay of church leaders I might add.

[I.J. Reilly]

"The Untold Story". Is this a movie or documentary. I saw one on PBS a while ago and I think it was called The Mormons and the Blacks or something like that. It was great. I had no idea the kind of faith the blacks in the church had exhibited before the Priesthood was restored to them.

I don't doubt there are still lingering prejudices out there. Much to the dismay of church leaders I might add.

It a documentary, and most likely the one you watched on PBS, as it has been broadcast by PBS.

That is a really interesting thought. My perspective is more along the lines of Oliver Cowdry and not studying it out or as Young said "not having the ear to hear." But Brother Gray has undoubtedly studied the issue far more than I and he has far more experience to analyze the impact it had on the LDS Church/culture. He sees aspects I cannot.

Gray spoke about the "ear to hear" part too, saying that it might have been that McKay didn't have the life experiences for him to pursue an answer in the way SWK did. He said that the Apostles that were in the temple when the Brethren finally prayed about it together described it as a "Pentecostal" experience.

I think that when he was talking about it being a test that was allowed, he was talking about how it never came down as a revelation and how it was never challenged and that God allowed it to happen until it became too much of an impediment to the growth of the church.

I also did not know until this meeting that Elijah Abel had been a member of a quorum of the seventy, that his membership in such had been up for periodic review (as had all members) and renewed every time, and that he had remained a seventy until his death in 1885.

I am inspired by how constructive they appear to be.

They prefaced the whole discussion by reaffirming their faith in the church and their desire to help build up the church through their work.

[Indy Coug]

It would be a very interesting movie, if someone could find enough solid information about Elijah Abel's life to fill 90 to 120 minutes without resorting to a lot of creative license to fill in the holes.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Gray - "What I know, and I choose my words carefully here, is that the priesthood ban was allowed by God as a test for how we will treat each other in the church. When that became too much of an impediment [to the growth of the church], through the direction of the Prophet, it was removed."

.

Nice findings IJR. This quote was the most interesting to me. Did he expand on it at all? I find the wording of God allowed it as a test curious.

[I.J. Reilly]

Nice findings IJR. This quote was the most interesting to me. Did he expand on it at all? I find the wording of God allowed it as a test curious.

Unfortunately, it was near the end of the time we spent together and there weren't any follow-up questions after this, but he was talking about it in the context of something that was integrated from the outside that came with the people as they moved to Utah. He said that the movement of a group of Saints to Utah from Mississippi who brought with them their slaves was a big turning point in race relations in the state and the church in general, when racism became more overt. He also spoke about it as possibly an attempt to be more accepted by society overall.

I thought the idea of it being "allowed" as a test was an interesting one, as well. It meshes well with the idea that God is generally a non-interventionist in matters of free agency. For some, however, it may be a tough idea, because it undercuts the idea of the infallibility of the church as an institution and the prophet specifically, but the whole issue of the history of blacks in the church does this in general.

[pellegrino]

Unfortunately, it was near the end of the time we spent together and there weren't any follow-up questions after this, but he was talking about it in the context of something that was integrated from the outside that came with the people as they moved to Utah. He said that the movement of a group of Saints to Utah from Mississippi who brought with them their slaves was a big turning point in race relations in the state and the church in general, when racism became more overt. He also spoke about it as possibly an attempt to be more accepted by society overall.

I thought the idea of it being "allowed" as a test was an interesting one, as well. It meshes well with the idea that God is generally a non-interventionist in matters of free agency. For some, however, it may be a tough idea, because it undercuts the idea of the infallibility of the church as an institution and the prophet specifically, but the whole issue of the history of blacks in the church does this in general.

Is that a common idea in Mormon doctrine. I mean we all know the saying the difference between the Pope and the Prophet is that the Pope always claims infallibility but Catholics never believe he is while the Prophet never claims infallibility but Mormons always believe he is, so we know what the cultural response is, but is there a doctrinal claim as to the infallibility of the Prophet/Church?

I guess I've always thought of the Church as a living thing that claimed to represent God's Kingdom, but not that it was infallible. The same goes with the Prophet.

[Indy Coug]

Well, we have multiple accounts of fallible prophets, but we also have multiple accounts of God disciplining/correcting those prophets in their moments of weakness.

[byu71]

Is that a common idea in Mormon doctrine. I mean we all know the saying the difference between the Pope and the Prophet is that the Pope always claims infallibility but Catholics never believe he is while the Prophet never claims infallibility but Mormons always believe he is, so we know what the cultural response is, but is there a doctrinal claim as to the infallibility of the Prophet/Church?

I guess I've always thought of the Church as a living thing that claimed to represent God's Kingdom, but not that it was infallible. The same goes with the Prophet.

I always heard the "prophet will never be allowed to lead us astray". Now up until sometime in my mid to late 20's I thought that meant in about everything. Now I just think it means he won't be allowed to lead us into ruin.

Leading astray could mean so many different things that one guy saying he can't and one guy saying he could, could be both right.