I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted

[Art Vandelay]

When I was first checking out CUF one of the things that interested me and sparked my interest to stick around was the foyer. I was impressed by posts that made me ponder things I hadn't before, gave me fresh perspective on a familiar subject, or taught me something I likely wouldn't have know otherwise. I have become less involved with most threads in the foyer overtime due to either the nature of the topic or the realization I likely have little to add to the discussion. I enjoy studying the scriptures (usually) and always love learning new insights so I thought I would start a thread where I and whoever, if any wants to participate can share something they've learned through their study or reading.

Two years ago I was dealing with a lot of issues related to my calling and was studying and praying to better understand repentance and the atonement. I was reading a verse in Helaman that I had never noticed before which changed my idea of repentance completely.

And may God grant, in his great fulness, that men might be brought unto repentance and good works, that they might be restored unto grace for grace, according to their works.

When I think about sin, I compare it to sliding down a hill. Some sins seem merely to be a small stumble and others are like glissading down an ice field. I think repentance can stop the decline, similar to sticking your ice-ax in to prevent your complete fall. However, as I read this scripture if I want to be fully restored (return to the same place on the mountain I started) I have to do good works. In other words repentance is not like restarting a video game and beginning again at the same place, it is more of an ice-screw and carabineer that safes a falling mountaineer. The Lord will always stop my decent if I let Him and He will help bole my ascent but the climbing back to my original point of orgin is based upon what I'm willing and able to do.

I realize anything most anything new insight I post in here was likely learned by most of the board in primary, but hopefully some the more knowledgeable than I will add to this thread (for their on many on here).

[wuapinmon]

Cool thread, doc, but you really suck at linking.

[Art Vandelay]

Cool thread, doc, but you really suck at linking.

Fixed. That was weird I don't know what happened to the links.

[UtahDan]

Three links. Three witnesses. Three stooges.

[LA Ute]

When I was first checking out CUF one of the things that interested me and sparked my interest to stick around was the foyer. I was impressed by posts that made me ponder things I hadn't before, gave me fresh perspective on a familiar subject, or taught me something I likely wouldn't have know otherwise. I have become less involved with most threads in the foyer overtime due to either the nature of the topic or the realization I likely have little to add to the discussion. I enjoy studying the scriptures (usually) and always love learning new insights so I thought I would start a thread where I and whoever, if any wants to participate can share something they've learned through their study or reading.

Two years ago I was dealing with a lot of issues related to my calling and was studying and praying to better understand repentance and the atonement. I was reading a verse in Helaman that I had never noticed before which changed my idea of repentance completely.



When I think about sin, I compare it to sliding down a hill. Some sins seem merely to be a small stumble and others are like glissading down an ice field. I think repentance can stop the decline, similar to sticking your ice-ax in to prevent your complete fall. However, as I read this scripture if I want to be fully restored (return to the same place on the mountain I started) I have to do good works. In other words repentance is not like restarting a video game and beginning again at the same place, it is more of an ice-screw and carabineer that safes a falling mountaineer. The Lord will always stop my decent if I let Him and He will help bole my ascent but the climbing back to my original point of orgin is based upon what I'm willing and able to do.

I realize anything most anything new insight I post in here was likely learned by most of the board in primary, but hopefully some the more knowledgeable than I will add to this thread (for their on many on here).

This is a very interesting point of view, Art, and I agree (although I find it free of skepticism - don't you know the rules here? ). I believe that the "grace for grace" comment means that we don't make that climb back up the hill alone, but have help. (Ether 12:27.) I love the concept of grace and am glad it is getting more attention in the Church these days.

[jay santos]

In other words repentance is not like restarting a video game and beginning again at the same place, it is more of an ice-screw and carabineer that safes a falling mountaineer. The Lord will always stop my decent if I let Him and He will help bole my ascent but the climbing back to my original point of orgin is based upon what I'm willing and able to do.

I think you have it backwards. Repentance is about giving your sins to Christ. Good works comes as a fruit of faith and repentance not a requirement.

[Art Vandelay]

This is a very interesting point of view, Art, and I agree (although I find it free of skepticism - don't you know the rules here? ). I believe that the "grace for grace" comment means that we don't make that climb back up the hill alone, but have help. (Ether 12:27.) I love the concept of grace and am glad it is getting more attention in the Church these days.

I think you have it backwards. Repentance is about giving your sins to Christ. Good works comes as a fruit of faith and repentance not a requirement.

I typed my original message quickly, and after rereading it I realize, poorly. I left out perhaps the most important aspect, which LA so kindly pointed out. It is only through Christ we can repent and be restored thus the "grace for grace".

I also agree with you Jay that repentance is about giving all your sins to Christ and then through the miraculous gift of the atonement being cleansed from them. However, when I confess of my sins (privately or to priesthood authority) and hopefully have already forsaken their sins that does not automatically return them to the same spiritual plane they were at before. I know God can not look on "any sin with the least degree of allowance", but I don't think I'm too far off base in suggesting some sins pulls of further away from the Holy Ghost than others (adultery seems a bigger deal than saying something mean to your wife; though both are bad) It is as I continue to repent daily of the small things, become more diligent in my prayers/scrip study/temple attendance and rely on the Grace of God that I'm able to be "restored". It is the combination of doing the right things, avoiding the wrong things, and most importantly developing a personal relationship with the Savior that progression temporal or eternal takes place.

If any of the mods want to relabel this this thread "Incoherent Ramblings of a Mullah" feel free to do so.

[jay santos]

I typed my original message quickly, and after rereading it I realize, poorly. I left out perhaps the most important aspect, which LA so kindly pointed out. It is only through Christ we can repent and be restored thus the "grace for grace".

I also agree with you Jay that repentance is about giving all your sins to Christ and then through the miraculous gift of the atonement being cleansed from them. However, when I confess of my sins (privately or to priesthood authority) and hopefully have already forsaken their sins that does not automatically return them to the same spiritual plane they were at before. I know God can not look on "any sin with the least degree of allowance", but I don't think I'm too far off base in suggesting some sins pulls of further away from the Holy Ghost than others (adultery seems a bigger deal than saying something mean to your wife; though both are bad) It is as I continue to repent daily of the small things, become more diligent in my prayers/scrip study/temple attendance and rely on the Grace of God that I'm able to be "restored". It is the combination of doing the right things, avoiding the wrong things, and most importantly developing a personal relationship with the Savior that progression temporal or eternal takes place.

If any of the mods want to relabel this this thread "Incoherent Ramblings of a Mullah" feel free to do so.

IMHO, this is a pretty good summary of Mormon thought. We believe in grace BUT being diligent blah blah blah prayers/scripture study/temple attendance blah blah blah we have to do our part blah blah blah. In the end I don't think we get grace at all.

[Art Vandelay]

IMHO, this is a pretty good summary of Mormon thought. We believe in grace BUT being diligent blah blah blah prayers/scripture study/temple attendance blah blah blah we have to do our part blah blah blah. In the end I don't think we get grace at all.

I'm guessing the "pretty good summary..." would be what they call a backhanded compliment? I absolutely don't understand grace, I believe it and the older I get the more I realize I need it, but my comprehension of it is infantile at best.

[jay santos]

I'm guessing the "pretty good summary..." would be what they call a backhanded compliment? I absolutely don't understand grace, I believe it and the older I get the more I realize I need it, but my comprehension of it is infantile at best.

I wouldn't call it a backhanded compliment. I just don't agree. Your view is a very standard Mormon view of grace/works. My view is different.

[Eddie]

IMHO, this is a pretty good summary of Mormon thought. We believe in grace BUT being diligent blah blah blah prayers/scripture study/temple attendance blah blah blah we have to do our part blah blah blah. In the end I don't think we get grace at all.

I don't go for the view that we are saved by grace alone and all we need to do is say we accept Christ and all is forgiven. I think that is much too simplistic.

I view it the same way as when 6 year-old eats my ice cream, tells me how sorry she is, and then turns around and eats my brownie too. Um, yeah. Sure you're sorry.

I think if we truly are sorry - if we truly do repent - then that repentance will be seen in our actions. So we aren't saved by our actions - we truly are saved by grace and there is nothing we can do to "earn" being saved. But our actions are like symptoms of repentance. If we truly have accepted Christ and repented, we will behave a certain way. When I have an infection I also get a fever. It comes with the infection. When I have repented I will act differently. It comes with repentance. That said, I don't expect any of us will ever be perfect. I do think we are expected to strive to be better.

Maybe another way of saying it is that I believe there is nothing we can do to make ourselves worthy of being saved. That all has to come from Grace. But I also believe that there are things we can do to keep ourselves from being saved. Such as sinning and then failing to repent - or failing to even make the attempt.

Maybe I misunderstand grace. I don't know. I just can't buy the concept that you can say you accept Christ while living a life that goes against everything He taught and expect to be saved for simply having made the statement that you accept Him.

[LA Ute]

IMHO, this is a pretty good summary of Mormon thought. We believe in grace BUT being diligent blah blah blah prayers/scripture study/temple attendance blah blah blah we have to do our part blah blah blah. In the end I don't think we get grace at all.

I am sorry if this has been asked of you before, but I am curious - do you reject the teaching "it by grace we are saved, after all we can do?" Or do you simply interpret it differently than most?

FWIW, my view is that the scripture teaches that although we need to do all we can, that will never be enough. In contrast. some people see that scripture as teaching the idea that once we have done all we can, zap! grace kicks in and does the rest, i.e., it is up to us to climb to a certain height, then we qualify for salvation. That view seemed very prevalent in my youth but I don't think it is anymore.

[jay santos]

I am sorry if this has been asked of you before, but I am curious - do you reject the teaching "it by grace we are saved, after all we can do?" Or do you simply interpret it differently than most?

FWIW, my view is that the scripture teaches that although we need to do all we can, that will never be enough. In contrast. some people see that scripture as teaching the idea that once we have done all we can, zap! grace kicks in and does the rest, i.e., it is up to us to climb to a certain height, then we qualify for salvation. That view seemed very prevalent in my youth but I don't think it is anymore.

I'm in the "even after all we can do or apart from what we can do" camp.

http://strongreasons.wordpress.com/2...all-we-can-do/