President Kimball on the 1978 revelation

[Indy Coug]

It's just an observation. Maybe some Mormon made up the mark of Cain rationale for the priesthood ban out of whole cloth. But that's unlikely I submit. I don't care what you believe. You're on record saying it makes you happy to be irrational. If that's the case far be it from me to steal your joy.

What I said is also true about Christianity, by the way. Only the ancient Hebrews and the ancient Greeks were original. They were the true people of God.

LOL. These groups had oodles of co-opted traditions that predate their existence. There's basically nothing original about them.

[SeattleUte]

LOL. These groups had oodles of co-opted traditions that predate their existence. There's basically nothing original about them.

That's in large part true about the Hebrews; they took a lot from the babylonians, Egyptians, etc. Also, like Mormonism, you can see tremendous evolution in Hebrew beliefs as you read the OT.

But the Greeks have large claims to originality, like history, science, representative government, drama, epic poetry, that kind of stuff.

[All-American]

That's in large part true about the Hebrews; they took a lot from the babylonians, Egyptians, etc. Also, like Mormonism, you can see tremendous evolution in Hebrew beliefs as you read the OT.

But the Greeks have large claims to originality, like history, science, representative government, drama, epic poetry, that kind of stuff.

You would be shocked, I think, to know how little originality the Greeks can claim to those things.

[byu71]

But the Greeks have large claims to originality, like history, science, representative government, drama, epic poetry, that kind of stuff.

I am not trolling here. Is there any reason I should give a shit except out of entertainment interest. I watch the history channel a lot. I find the stories about the Romans, Greeks, Barbarians, Aztecs, Inca's and even the folks on Easter Island fascinating and interesting.

Two of my boys know only what they learned in school and nothing more. Should I be concerned and why.

[Indy Coug]

I am not trolling here. Is there any reason I should give a shit except out of entertainment interest. I watch the history channel a lot. I find the stories about the Romans, Greeks, Barbarians, Aztecs, Inca's and even the folks on Easter Island fascinating and interesting.

Two of my boys know only what they learned in school and nothing more. Should I be concerned and why.

I'm just sick and tired of SU short-changing the Chinese.

[All-American]

I am not trolling here. Is there any reason I should give a shit except out of entertainment interest. I watch the history channel a lot. I find the stories about the Romans, Greeks, Barbarians, Aztecs, Inca's and even the folks on Easter Island fascinating and interesting.

Two of my boys know only what they learned in school and nothing more. Should I be concerned and why.

It's ideological genealogy. It only matters if you care about where you came from, and consequentially, who you are. Otherwise, no, it is of no concern.

[SeattleUte]

It's ideological genealogy. It only matters if you care about where you came from, and consequentially, who you are. Otherwise, no, it is of no concern.

You know what Socrates said about the unexamined life (can the Greeks claim to have invented philosophy?).

[All-American]

You know what Socrates said about the unexamined life (can the Greeks claim to have invented philosophy?).

They had their brand of it, to be sure, but generally speaking, you would have to define the term pretty narrowly to say that the Greeks invented it.

[LA Ute]

This is a pretty high-brow thread all of a sudden. Come on, I want folk magic and polyandry discussed!

[Jeff Lebowski]

You missed the mark. I'm not looking for biblical or other religious justification for racism.

I'm looking for some kind of actual reference point in Church history where a prophet says, in effect, "From this day forward, no Black men will hold the priesthood of God." I don't remember anything about segregation in the Doctrine and Covenants, so I'm just wondering about how the actual policy came into play.

Don't listen to SU. Here are some places to start:

1. Mauss Article on "Defending the Curse of Cain::

http://www.mormonstories.org/other/DispellingtheCurseofCain.pdf

2. The book, Black and Mormon:

Amazon.com: Black and Mormon (9780252073564): Newell G. Bringhurst, Darron T. Smith: Books

Some great stuff on the origins. Also debunks the PoGP angle that SU always mentions.

I wrote a short review of the book here:

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16401

3. The recent documentary, "Nobody Knows, The Untold Story of Black Mormons"

Very enlightening section of the timing of the ban origin. They claim it started with a specific speech by BY in Utah.

[Viking]

When I actually attended church in Manhattan years ago, Bushman (IIRC) stated that most historical accounts point to BY but that it was clearly up for debate and not definite.

[Hallelujah]

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_14287116

Sounds like the brethren may not have been unanimous after all, but ultimately chose to sustain their prophet's wish.

And that's the way it should be.

[Hallelujah]

You missed the mark. I'm not looking for biblical or other religious justification for racism.

I'm looking for some kind of actual reference point in Church history where a prophet says, in effect, "From this day forward, no Black men will hold the priesthood of God." I don't remember anything about segregation in the Doctrine and Covenants, so I'm just wondering about how the actual policy came into play.

From what I have heard from my parents is that it was more policy than doctrine. Which makes sense.

[TripletDaddy]

First Impressions:

I received my copy in the mail just this past weekend, so I spent a chunk of time on Sunday reading what I could in between meetings and such. As JeffLebowski pointed out, it is a nicely done tome. At almost double the original version of "Lengthen Your Stride," it clocks in at around 650+ pages....not inaccessible, but most certainly not a day read by any stretch. I am about 40 pages into it and am really enjoying it.

Since I never read the CD accompaniment, not sure how the CD experience translated when trying to read the text as it was published vs how it was intended. I really appreciate the way this "Working Draft" copy is laid out.....with the entire text in its intended form, blue text denoting removed or edited portions, black text denoting text as appeared in the trade edition. However, it is easier for me to understand the context in which the Blue text originally appeared when it appears in original sequential order.

If you are familiar with LYS, you are aware that the Priesthood stuff isn't addressed in any detail until well into the book. Even though this thread is a 1978 thread, I didn't want to skip ahead, but rather read the events in sequence to try to get a better feel for what SWKT may have been thinking or feeling as his ministry progressed from SP to Apostle to President. It has been years since I read LYS (back in undergrad) so this is almost like reading it fresh again.

I will try to limit my brief observations to the blue text, as the black text is readily available and likely already known to most here through an individual reading of LYS.

1. The footnoting in this thing is exhaustive. In the first 40 or so pages, the notes have been heavy on early Ensign articles and the Kimball Papers, both of which are readily available. However there is also a heavy reliance on third party "hearsay" for much of the account...something the author readily admits and, imo, doesn't necessarily diminish the authenticity of the account. However, from an authentication standpoint, it is obvious that we can only hope that much of the text is accurate...did everyone remember all of these stories accurately? Who knows.

2. Much of the blue text in the introductory chapters deals with SWKs chronic health problems, often portraying the Prophet as extremely frail (which he was) and surprisingly self-aware of his mortality. I assume much of this was excised simply because it added nothing substantive that could not be gleaned elsewhere in other accounts, although I still found the anecdotes to be interesting reads. As an example, an account of his decision to have heart surgery in 1972 at the hands of Elder Nelson, with SWK basically ready to die and get some rest but Harold B Lee pounding his fists on the desk and demanding that SWK have the operation. Also, the night that Harold B Lee died, SWK, head of the Q12, shows up to the hospital, sees Elder Romney (a member of the FP) and asks, "President Romney, what would you like me to do?" Within an hour, Pres Lee died. The doctors informed everyone and immediately, Elder Romeny turns to SWK and says, "Pres Kimball, What would YOU like ME to do?" The first chapter seems to be littered with blue texted anecdotes such as these that add a lot of human dimension to a guy that was admittedly terrified of assuming each successive mantle of authority, yet did so humbly and with faith.

3. Chapter 2 blue text gives us our first glimpse at some of the minutiae that the President faces...or at least used to face...there is an entire section of blue text going into great detail about many of the issues the FP would address in their daily morning meetings...ranging from requests from an ex'ed doctor that had been performing abortions to the approval of wearing pant suits as part of nurses uniforms in Church hospitals. Also, this was the time when the decision was apparently made to cease making public announcements that a disfellowshipped member had been received back into full fellowship. This was an interesting list of agenda items.

4. Question for those in the know: there is also a section of blue text on N Eldon Tanner. Can anyone provide any more info on this quote:

Deficit spending from aggressive building programs promoted by counselor Henry D. Moyle had created a financial crisis, but Tanner's financial acumen and organizational skills allowed him to bring the Church back to a firm financial footing

The source is a book on the life of Henry D. Moyle, which I have admittedly not read. But what of this financial crisis in the Church? Obviously this is something that would not be desirable for print but what is known about the severity of this crisis? Was there a building boom in the 60s and early 70s? And was this the impetus that prompted the Church to adopt its alleged "cash only" budgetary policy?

5. How much, if anything, did D. Arthur Haycock publish by way of memoirs? I guess I didn't realize that he was secretary for 4 Church presidents and I can only assume that as a daily traveling companion and journal writer for these men, his memoirs would be an interesting read.

6. Lots of text re: Ervil LeBaron had been excised...much of related to security measures taken to protect SWK and Camilla as well as the murder of Ervil's brother and detail regarding the very real nature of Ervil's threats to kill the FP. There was other excised text of mentally ill returned missionaries making threats or actually laying in wait for SWK. Sounds like more than a few people wanted to kill SWK.

Anyhow, these are some observations from the first 35-40 pages, limited strictly to blue text. A quick glance into the book shows that there is a LOT of blue text to tackle, as well as corresponding footnotes. To the extent that anyone here is interested in sharing insights to some of my questions as they pop up, I would appreciate it. Thus far the only footnote of interest to me is the one regarding Moyle and the financial crisis, but that Moyle biography might be reading for another day.

[Solon]

First Impressions:

I received my copy in the mail just this past weekend, so I spent a chunk of time on Sunday reading what I could in between meetings and such. As JeffLebowski pointed out, it is a nicely done tome. At almost double the original version of "Lengthen Your Stride," it clocks in at around 650+ pages....not inaccessible, but most certainly not a day read by any stretch. I am about 40 pages into it and am really enjoying it.

Since I never read the CD accompaniment, not sure how the CD experience translated when trying to read the text as it was published vs how it was intended. I really appreciate the way this "Working Draft" copy is laid out.....with the entire text in its intended form, blue text denoting removed or edited portions, black text denoting text as appeared in the trade edition. However, it is easier for me to understand the context in which the Blue text originally appeared when it appears in original sequential order.

If you are familiar with LYS, you are aware that the Priesthood stuff isn't addressed in any detail until well into the book. Even though this thread is a 1978 thread, I didn't want to skip ahead, but rather read the events in sequence to try to get a better feel for what SWKT may have been thinking or feeling as his ministry progressed from SP to Apostle to President. It has been years since I read LYS (back in undergrad) so this is almost like reading it fresh again.

I will try to limit my brief observations to the blue text, as the black text is readily available and likely already known to most here through an individual reading of LYS.

1. The footnoting in this thing is exhaustive. In the first 40 or so pages, the notes have been heavy on early Ensign articles and the Kimball Papers, both of which are readily available. However there is also a heavy reliance on third party "hearsay" for much of the account...something the author readily admits and, imo, doesn't necessarily diminish the authenticity of the account. However, from an authentication standpoint, it is obvious that we can only hope that much of the text is accurate...did everyone remember all of these stories accurately? Who knows.

2. Much of the blue text in the introductory chapters deals with SWKs chronic health problems, often portraying the Prophet as extremely frail (which he was) and surprisingly self-aware of his mortality. I assume much of this was excised simply because it added nothing substantive that could not be gleaned elsewhere in other accounts, although I still found the anecdotes to be interesting reads. As an example, an account of his decision to have heart surgery in 1972 at the hands of Elder Nelson, with SWK basically ready to die and get some rest but Harold B Lee pounding his fists on the desk and demanding that SWK have the operation. Also, the night that Harold B Lee died, SWK, head of the Q12, shows up to the hospital, sees Elder Romney (a member of the FP) and asks, "President Romney, what would you like me to do?" Within an hour, Pres Lee died. The doctors informed everyone and immediately, Elder Romeny turns to SWK and says, "Pres Kimball, What would YOU like ME to do?" The first chapter seems to be littered with blue texted anecdotes such as these that add a lot of human dimension to a guy that was admittedly terrified of assuming each successive mantle of authority, yet did so humbly and with faith.

3. Chapter 2 blue text gives us our first glimpse at some of the minutiae that the President faces...or at least used to face...there is an entire section of blue text going into great detail about many of the issues the FP would address in their daily morning meetings...ranging from requests from an ex'ed doctor that had been performing abortions to the approval of wearing pant suits as part of nurses uniforms in Church hospitals. Also, this was the time when the decision was apparently made to cease making public announcements that a disfellowshipped member had been received back into full fellowship. This was an interesting list of agenda items.

4. Question for those in the know: there is also a section of blue text on N Eldon Tanner. Can anyone provide any more info on this quote:



The source is a book on the life of Henry D. Moyle, which I have admittedly not read. But what of this financial crisis in the Church? Obviously this is something that would not be desirable for print but what is known about the severity of this crisis? Was there a building boom in the 60s and early 70s? And was this the impetus that prompted the Church to adopt its alleged "cash only" budgetary policy?

5. How much, if anything, did D. Arthur Haycock publish by way of memoirs? I guess I didn't realize that he was secretary for 4 Church presidents and I can only assume that as a daily traveling companion and journal writer for these men, his memoirs would be an interesting read.

6. Lots of text re: Ervil LeBaron had been excised...much of related to security measures taken to protect SWK and Camilla as well as the murder of Ervil's brother and detail regarding the very real nature of Ervil's threats to kill the FP. There was other excised text of mentally ill returned missionaries making threats or actually laying in wait for SWK. Sounds like more than a few people wanted to kill SWK.

Anyhow, these are some observations from the first 35-40 pages, limited strictly to blue text. A quick glance into the book shows that there is a LOT of blue text to tackle, as well as corresponding footnotes. To the extent that anyone here is interested in sharing insights to some of my questions as they pop up, I would appreciate it. Thus far the only footnote of interest to me is the one regarding Moyle and the financial crisis, but that Moyle biography might be reading for another day.

Thanks, 3D. Keep it coming. I'll buy a copy someday but in the meantime I have to live through yours.