Focus on the known of the restoration, Elder Hafen counsels

[byu71]

I never said I care about it. That is quite a conclusion you come to.

I never said you cared about it. Quite a conclusion you came to.

[TripletDaddy]

That is exactly what I was saying. A lot of good stuff can come and be written without it coming through divine revelation. Therefor, I am not in agreement with what Elder Hafen said.

So then you seem to be saying that you ARE a proponent of the Kinderhook Plates, as well as the Hoffman forgeries.

They contain good messages. They are also forgeries/fraudulent.

Is this the case? If so, then I concur that you and Elder Hafen seem to be at loggerheads.

I am also confused, fwiw.

[byu71]

So then you seem to be saying that you ARE a proponent of the Kinderhook Plates, as well as the Hoffman forgeries.

They contain good messages. They are also forgeries/fraudulent.

Is this the case? If so, then I concur that you and Elder Hafen seem to be at loggerheads.

I am also confused, fwiw.

Sorry, all I am saying is that I am not a proponent of something I know very little about or understand. I didn't get into the Hoffman thing much either, except to know he was convicted as a killer.

Can good things happen as a result of a religiously perceived bad act, yea I think that is possible.

[UtahDan]

So here are the highlights:

• Don't worry about "unsubstantiated rumors" and "footnotes"
• These things come from "anti-Mormon literature found on the Internet"
• These "arguments have already been addressed by Mormon scholars and leaders"
• "The democratization of ideas sometimes confuses the reader as to what is true and what is not."
• "How (Joseph Smith) received it doesn't ultimately matter to us very much."

The first bullet point, may actually be very good advise for those who are able to take it.

If points two and three were really the problem, very few would struggle with those issues. Point four is clearly correct and is the primary problem he is addressing, though I think the confusion is not simply about what things being read on the internet are true and which are not. Point five is, I'm sorry, completely untrue. A quick peruse of any instruction manual any any level that deals with Joseph puts the lie to it.

Bruce Hafen is a smart guy and he is in an unenviable position here on the ground he is trying to defend.

I liked Sister Hafen's words much, much more when she quoted Nephi:

"I don't know the meaning of all things," she said, "but I do know that God loveth his children."

To me, that is a more intellectually honest answer. There are some very tough nuts to crack within the gospel and much as I respect Bruce Hafen, this to me was a pretty feeble and facile approach. I should give the disclaimer that I love Marie Hafen. She was my favorite professor at BYU and I found her to be very kind as well as very formidable.

[byu71]

She was my favorite professor at BYU and I found her to be very kind as well as very formidable.

Here is something I don't get. Here is a religous man and someone who appears to believe in taking the brethern's word for it and follow the counsel. If you do so, you will be alright.

My question is. How does a man of such faith, also let his wife work outside of the home. I would like to ask him if he thinks "every young man a missionary" is counsel or a commandment.

I am not trying to disparage Elder Hafen. Don't know him, but trust your description of him as a good man. However, am I wrong in seeing an inconsistency here.

[SloanHater]

Here is something I don't get. Here is a religous man and someone who appears to believe in taking the brethern's word for it and follow the counsel. If you do so, you will be alright.

My question is. How does a man of such faith, also let his wife work outside of the home. I would like to ask him if he thinks "every young man a missionary" is counsel or a commandment.

I am not trying to disparage Elder Hafen. Don't know him, but trust your description of him as a good man. However, am I wrong in seeing an inconsistency here.

So you think a guy who just said, 'Don't sweat the small stuff,' should indeed 'sweat the small stuff' ?

[CardiacCoug]

Here is something I don't get. Here is a religous man and someone who appears to believe in taking the brethern's word for it and follow the counsel. If you do so, you will be alright.

My question is. How does a man of such faith, also let his wife work outside of the home. I would like to ask him if he thinks "every young man a missionary" is counsel or a commandment.

I am not trying to disparage Elder Hafen. Don't know him, but trust your description of him as a good man. However, am I wrong in seeing an inconsistency here.

FWIW, I believe Marie stayed home with the kids for the most part when they had kids at home. I don't think men in the Church have been counseled not to allow their wife to work outside the home even after kids are grown and out of the house. I agree with UD that Marie Hafen is very cool.

[byu71]

FWIW, I believe Marie stayed home with the kids for the most part when they had kids at home. I don't think men in the Church have been counseled not to allow their wife to work outside the home even after kids are grown and out of the house. I agree with UD that Marie Hafen is very cool.

I regret even getting into this. It really is none of my business. My son has had a couple of well meaning members in his ward, higher ups, quote church authorities and suggest his wife shouldn't be working.

That has nothing to do with Elder Hafen, his wife and their situation. Again, I regret even bringing it up.

[woot]

Do I need to know how Copernicus figured out the solar-centric model?

No, because that science can be confirmed today. When the whole basis of your belief system depends on the true gospel and authority of god being restored with no way to check on it today, you'd better believe the origin story is of the utmost importance.

[Indy Coug]

No, because that science can be confirmed today. When the whole basis of your belief system depends on the true gospel and authority of god being restored with no way to check on it today, you'd better believe the origin story is of the utmost importance.

Practical application of religious principles is a simple way to validate the content (conclusions), regardless of how it was derived.

[CardiacCoug]

No, because that science can be confirmed today. When the whole basis of your belief system depends on the true gospel and authority of god being restored with no way to check on it today, you'd better believe the origin story is of the utmost importance.

I don't think the value of a religion lies in its historical or scientific plausibility -- because frankly there isn't any traditional religion that has historical or scientific plausibility.

Religion is religion and science is science, and when religion tries to answer scientific questions the result is ridiculous and insulting to any intelligent, scientifically-minded person.

[SloanHater]

No, because that science can be confirmed today. When the whole basis of your belief system depends on the true gospel and authority of god being restored with no way to check on it today, you'd better believe the origin story is of the utmost importance.

I think this at the heart of Elder Hafen's thesis. When the method of discovery becomes more important than the discovery itself, you've got a problem. We can speculate and debate whether Newton lied about an apple falling on his head, but his math is still pretty damn good regardless.

I think Church leadership is increasingly concerned with the amount of time spent by Church membership debating the details and speculative issues (see CUF) of the gospel versus the amount of time spent praying, studying, and leading Christian lives.

I believe this is the issue Elder Hafen was attempting to address.

[woot]

Practical application of religious principles is a simple way to validate the content (conclusions), regardless of how it was derived.

That's the wisdom, although there's no reason to think it's true. Regardless, I'm assuming that the average Mormon buys into the "one true church" stuff.

I don't think the value of a religion lies in its historical or scientific plausibility -- because frankly there isn't any traditional religion that has historical or scientific plausibility.

Religion is religion and science is science, and when religion tries to answer scientific questions the result is ridiculous and insulting to any intelligent, scientifically-minded person.

Agreed, although I do think that historicity is much more important in Mormonism than just about any other religion, because of the specific claims of authority and restoration.

[OrangeUte]

... whether from a burning bush, or whispered through the yellow lips of a rubber chicken...

this made me laugh.

ends justifies the means logic is dangerous.

[Jarid in Cedar]