John Dehlin is thinking about bringing Mormon Stories back

[Topper]

The dude is kind of a genius. He creates faith crises through Mormon Stories and then counsels folks experiencing crises. It's a great circle.

Kinda like casinos that promote gambling counseling.

[Surfah]

Kinda like casinos that promote gambling counseling.

Not quite.

[BigFatMeanie]

Where would you put the civil rights movement and equality for women and LGBT on this continuum?

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I'll give you my opinion:

Civil Rights = racket. Exhibit A: Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton
Women = business
LGBT = business, moving to racket territory much faster than womens rights or civil rights ever did.

[cowboy]

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I'll give you my opinion:

Civil Rights = racket. Exhibit A: Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton
Women = business
LGBT = business, moving to racket territory much faster than womens rights or civil rights ever did.

Thanks. I'm glad you were willing to express your opinion. I honestly don't consider myself informed enough on the last two to offer an opinion, but I certainly agree with your assessment on civil rights.

Dehlin personifies the problem with most movements: People see fame and fortune in convincing others that they are victims, and people love to feel victimized. Sadly, those who exploit the situation enrich themselves and make the problem they are addressing, which is often legitimate, worse instead of better. Dehlin could have done good things by convincing the church to be more forthright with the history of the church and its leaders, but chose to serve his own interest rather than that of others.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I'll give you my opinion:

Civil Rights = racket. Exhibit A: Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton
Women = business
LGBT = business, moving to racket territory much faster than womens rights or civil rights ever did.

I missed this. Totally agree on Jackson and Sharpton. This is just human natures so one can find these elements in any big cause, some moreso than others. The LDS church is certainly not immune. City Creek/CPB (business). Deseret Book/John Bytheway/etc (racket).

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I missed this. Totally agree on Jackson and Sharpton. This is just human natures so one can find these elements in any big cause, some moreso than others. The LDS church is certainly not immune. City Creek/CPB (business). Deseret Book/John Bytheway/etc (racket).

A couple of years ago LDC and I were at D-book after going to the temple in Portland just a week or so after gen conf, the lady behind the desk said something about a new book by one of the apostles. I said "oh I figure anything really important they had to say they just gave us for free, no thanks" I thought it was a playful sarcastic comment. The teller started testifying to me about how nobody makes any money from D-book and started getting that crying voice where she was going to break down and walked away. LDC was not amused.

[creekster]

I missed this. Totally agree on Jackson and Sharpton. This is just human natures so one can find these elements in any big cause, some moreso than others. The LDS church is certainly not immune. City Creek/CPB (business). Deseret Book/John Bytheway/etc (racket).

The civil rights movement example highlights the point I was trying to make. The CAUSE of civil rights IS great and has not been diminished nor corrupted as a CAUSE. That we have Sharpton and Jakcson and their ilk setting up their own little profit centers on the back of the cause doesn't mean that the larger purpose has disappeared or is no longer worthy of support (which was the implied point of the original quotation, I think). Dehlin, by stark contrast, had a cause of helping people who felt upset by their experience in the mormon church. That is not a great cause nor is it worthy of much at all, as far as goals or causes go, especially when one considers that Dehlin is CREATING a lot of the supporters of the cause by teaching them just how upset they are or should be.

You implicitly recognize this difference by saying that we see this process play out in 'elements;' of a cause based on human nature. With that I totally agree. But I dont think Dehlin should be accorded the position of having championed a great cause.

To the larger point, btw, I guess I may disagree with the original quotation, but agree with your 'human nature' comment relating to elements of support for causes. The casue often remains, especially if it was great, but the worth of supporting the persons promoting the cause varies widely over time.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The civil rights movement example highlights the point I was trying to make. The CAUSE of civil rights IS great and has not been diminished nor corrupted as a CAUSE. That we have Sharpton and Jakcson and their ilk setting up their own little profit centers on the back of the cause doesn't mean that the larger purpose has disappeared or is no longer worthy of support (which was the implied point of the original quotation, I think). Dehlin, by stark contrast, had a cause of helping people who felt upset by their experience in the mormon church. That is not a great cause nor is it worthy of much at all, as far as goals or causes go, especially when one considers that Dehlin is CREATING a lot of the supporters of the cause by teaching them just how upset they are or should be.

You implicitly recognize this difference by saying that we see this process play out in 'elements;' of a cause based on human nature. With that I totally agree. But I dont think Dehlin should be accorded the position of having championed a great cause.

To the larger point, btw, I guess I may disagree with the original quotation, but agree with your 'human nature' comment relating to elements of support for causes. The casue often remains, especially if it was great, but the worth of supporting the persons promoting the cause varies widely over time.

That's an awfully subjective argument. I am sure there are plenty of people who saw (or currently see) the whole Mormon Stories thing as a worthy cause. I can't stand John Dehlin, but I wouldn't go so far as to claim that he always intended to lead people out of the church. Then I would be engaging in the same type of hyperbole/leap of logic that he and Kate Kelly are currently engaging in.

Whatever the case, he went from movement/cause to business to racket.

[creekster]

That's an awfully subjective argument. I am sure there are plenty of people who saw (or currently see) the whole Mormon Stories thing as a worthy cause. I can't stand John Dehlin, but I wouldn't go so far as to claim that he always intended to lead people out of the church. Then I would be engaging in the same type of hyperbole/leap of logic that he and Kate Kelly are currently engaging in.

Whatever the case, he went from movement/cause to business to racket.

Deciding greatness tends to be subjective.

Agree with the rest.

[Northwestcoug]

The civil rights movement example highlights the point I was trying to make. The CAUSE of civil rights IS great and has not been diminished nor corrupted as a CAUSE. That we have Sharpton and Jakcson and their ilk setting up their own little profit centers on the back of the cause doesn't mean that the larger purpose has disappeared or is no longer worthy of support (which was the implied point of the original quotation, I think). Dehlin, by stark contrast, had a cause of helping people who felt upset by their experience in the mormon church. That is not a great cause nor is it worthy of much at all, as far as goals or causes go, especially when one considers that Dehlin is CREATING a lot of the supporters of the cause by teaching them just how upset they are or should be.

You implicitly recognize this difference by saying that we see this process play out in 'elements;' of a cause based on human nature. With that I totally agree. But I dont think Dehlin should be accorded the position of having championed a great cause.

To the larger point, btw, I guess I may disagree with the original quotation, but agree with your 'human nature' comment relating to elements of support for causes. The casue often remains, especially if it was great, but the worth of supporting the persons promoting the cause varies widely over time.

Please share the number of ex-mos you know who were happy in the church, then they heard one Dehlin podcast and suddenly ran for the chapel exit. He is not creating significant numbers of angry ex-mos who didn't have significant church problems before. The fact that belligerent ex-mos congregate around him is neither here nor there. As always, they are much louder than the majority of those who behave like adults.

His cause has pretty much stayed the same since he started the podcast; to help unorthodox or unbelieving mos find a healthy relationship with the church, either within or out of it. I think this is a worthy cause. It has become a racket, which is unfortunate. But many ex-mos need a soft place to land when they fall from the church. We can't all be like flystripper.

[falafel]

A couple of years ago LDC and I were at D-book after going to the temple in Portland just a week or so after gen conf, the lady behind the desk said something about a new book by one of the apostles. I said "oh I figure anything really important they had to say they just gave us for free, no thanks" I thought it was a playful sarcastic comment. The teller started testifying to me about how nobody makes any money from D-book and started getting that crying voice where she was going to break down and walked away. LDC was not amused.

This is great. I like the idea of general conference as a teaser, but you've got to join membership site to get all the good stuff.

[eldiente]

Interesting analysis of Open Stories Foundations recent financial releases

http://rationalfaiths.com/john-dehli...s-q-raised-qs/



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Donuthole]

Interesting analysis of Open Stories Foundations recent financial releases

http://rationalfaiths.com/john-dehli...s-q-raised-qs/

The comments are great.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The comments are great.

[creekster]

Please share the number of ex-mos you know who were happy in the church, then they heard one Dehlin podcast and suddenly ran for the chapel exit. He is not creating significant numbers of angry ex-mos who didn't have significant church problems before. The fact that belligerent ex-mos congregate around him is neither here nor there. As always, they are much louder than the majority of those who behave like adults.

His cause has pretty much stayed the same since he started the podcast; to help unorthodox or unbelieving mos find a healthy relationship with the church, either within or out of it. I think this is a worthy cause. It has become a racket, which is unfortunate. But many ex-mos need a soft place to land when they fall from the church. We can't all be like flystripper.

I think we elsewhere established very clearly that I have no idea of the numbers involved, nor do I claim to know. What I do believe is that people tend to be a lot more self-reliant and capable of problem solving, on the whole, before they are told they need help to solve their problems. His cause was never great. Its existence has morphed into a racket (to the extent it wasn't some version of that to begin with). As a general matter I think we need fewer people telling us we need help to deal with our lives, on any issue, rather than more.