Saved by Grace

[jay santos]

http://www.cougarboard.com/nologin/m...tml?id=5134792

I think maybe I officially hate Mormons.

It's a beautiful scripture.

[All-American]

No question that we over-correct on this one.

[Babs]

There's a reason nobody ever wrote a song called Amazing Works.

[statman]

A few weeks after I started grad school, my wife and I had dinner with a couple - I knew the husband from school. He is the son of a Baptist minister, born adn raised in Shrieveport, LA, and agnostic, but is very well versed in Evangelical christian doctrine. He went to LSU on scholarship - for their debate team (not an NCAA 'sport' but some endowment paid his tuition.

We started talking about generic stuff and came to religion - he did not know I was LDS. After a few minutes of discussing grace/works he was pretty sure he'd caught me in a logical loop. I argued that I was being perfectly consistent. He started to explain - "You said X here and Y here. Those two can't fit together, unless..."

Then he backtracked - "You're LDS aren't you?"

Yup - we absolutely believe that we are saved by Grace - but our works (combined of course with more Grace) enable the difference between eternal life and exaltation.

[jay santos]

A few weeks after I started grad school, my wife and I had dinner with a couple - I knew the husband from school. He is the son of a Baptist minister, born adn raised in Shrieveport, LA, and agnostic, but is very well versed in Evangelical christian doctrine. He went to LSU on scholarship - for their debate team (not an NCAA 'sport' but some endowment paid his tuition.

We started talking about generic stuff and came to religion - he did not know I was LDS. After a few minutes of discussing grace/works he was pretty sure he'd caught me in a logical loop. I argued that I was being perfectly consistent. He started to explain - "You said X here and Y here. Those two can't fit together, unless..."

Then he backtracked - "You're LDS aren't you?"

Yup - we absolutely believe that we are saved by Grace - but our works (combined of course with more Grace) enable the difference between eternal life and exaltation.

I don't know if you're saying that Christian doctrine is illogical and Mormon doctrine is logical. That's what most Mormons seem to believe. The reality is that there is not a that big of a difference. Most of the difference is in semantics.

[Tick's wife]

In the January 2010 Ensign, pg 16, 4th bullet that says "...the Atonement is not something we earn. It is a gift freely given. The Lord's grace is real....."
The Ensign is suppose to be "good readings"of the church. If they publish in the Ensign then I'm sure it is approved by the church.

This is where our house is divided.

[statman]

I don't know if you're saying that Christian doctrine is illogical and Mormon doctrine is logical. That's what most Mormons seem to believe. The reality is that there is not a that big of a difference. Most of the difference is in semantics.

No, not illogical, but the two big divisions of Chistiandom have very different and very conflicting beliefs on the subject. In my discussion with my friend, I was arguing from both sides - that both are absolutely necessary.

And it's not just semantics. Catholics are very task/practice oriented. They actively teach that to focus on faith/grace is a cop-out, and that it will lead people astray. To be saved, you must have the works, period (and think of Catholic 'works' as the LDS definition of 'ordinances,' not just doing good things). Protestants (Baptists, at least) say that focusing on works is 'hollow religion' - that it's your faith and Christ's grace alone that save you. Going to Church, helping the poor, etc do nothing for you unless you're already saved...

[statman]

In the January 2010 Ensign, pg 16, 4th bullet that says "...the Atonement is not something we earn. It is a gift freely given. The Lord's grace is real....."
The Ensign is suppose to be "good readings"of the church. If they publish in the Ensign then I'm sure it is approved by the church.

This is where our house is divided.

That's half of the equation. We must also apply the Atonement to our lives by making and keeping covenants (ordinances). Without these works, we also cannot be saved. And without the Atonement, the ordinances and covenants would be meaningless.

Ultimately, both grace and making & keeping covenants are absolutely essential to our salvation, and both are dependent upon Christ's atonement.

[Tick's wife]

No, not illogical, but the two big divisions of Chistiandom have very different and very conflicting beliefs on the subject. In my discussion with my friend, I was arguing from both sides - that both are absolutely necessary.

And it's not just semantics. Catholics are very task/practice oriented. They actively teach that to focus on faith/grace is a cop-out, and that it will lead people astray. To be saved, you must have the works, period (and think of Catholic 'works' as the LDS definition of 'ordinances,' not just doing good things). Protestants (Baptists, at least) say that focusing on works is 'hollow religion' - that it's your faith and Christ's grace alone that save you. Going to Church, helping the poor, etc do nothing for you unless you're already saved...

that's crap, my works or any others does not make them any better than the next person and the amount of works doesn't make a person better or more saved than the other.

[Donuthole]

that's crap, my works or any others does not make them any better than the next person and the amount of works doesn't make a person better or more saved than the other.

Well I guess that settles it. That was a short thread.

[clackamascoug]

that's crap, my works or any others does not make them any better than the next person and the amount of works doesn't make a person better or more saved than the other.

Maybe works could/should be interpreted as "The Saving Ordinances."

[barnes]

Talking to Evangelicals it appears to me that confusion is not faith vs. works but rather sanctification vs. justification

Sanctification --> Justification
It Mormonism sanctification leads to justification. You are sanctified during baptism and remain sanctified by good works and repentance. Sanctification is a combination of grace, good works, and man’s free-will. Unless you receive your Calling and Election in mortality, one is justified at the judgment seat prior to resurrection. Justification is 100% grace.


Justification --> Sanctification
To Evangelicals you are justified (again 100% grace) when you proclaim Jesus your savior. Once justified you are then propelled to live a sanctified life. The good works you perform as you live a sanctified life cannot really be attributed to your free-will but because you were chosen to be justified.

In both Evangelical and Mormon thought, justification is all grace, and both may say that one is saved at justification, but there appears a big difference to when that happens. Also the role of free-will as one lives a sanctified life also comes to play. Mormons are huge on free-will but it seems that other forms of Christianity are all over the map (for example Calvinism vs. Arminianism).

[Tick's wife]

Talking to Evangelicals it appears to me that confusion is not faith vs. works but rather sanctification vs. justification

Sanctification --> Justification
It Mormonism sanctification leads to justification. You are sanctified during baptism and remain sanctified by good works and repentance. Sanctification is a combination of grace, good works, and man’s free-will. Unless you receive your Calling and Election in mortality, one is justified at the judgment seat prior to resurrection. Justification is 100% grace.


Justification --> Sanctification
To Evangelicals you are justified (again 100% grace) when you proclaim Jesus your savior. Once justified you are then propelled to live a sanctified life. The good works you perform as you live a sanctified life cannot really be attributed to your free-will but because you were chosen to be justified.

In both Evangelical and Mormon thought, justification is all grace, and both may say that one is saved at justification, but there appears a big difference to when that happens. Also the role of free-will as one lives a sanctified life also comes to play. Mormons are huge on free-will but it seems that other forms of Christianity are all over the map (for example Calvinism vs. Arminianism).

good thing my life won't be judged by man but God when I go to the pearly gates.

[wuapinmon]

This is where our house is divided.

Lemme guess. You're more of an "En-sun" kinda girl, while Tick is a by-the-book En-sign kinda guy?

[Tick's wife]

Lemme guess. You're more of an "En-sun" kinda girl, while Tick is a by-the-book En-sign kinda guy?

actually it is pronounced En-sign, it was stated in the Ensign about 10 yrs ago on the inside front cover. by the book? hmmm, good question. I like to think of myself as having a sense of reality.