Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar
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Usurping Patriarchal Blessings
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Oh PAC, I feel for you.Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!
For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.
Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."
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Sounds like you know something the "father" doesn't.Originally posted by ERCougar View PostIt can't be literal. I personally know several cases of fathers and sons with different lineages.
That said, I have no idea what it means or what value it has. I'm not implying that it doesn't have any, but I sure don't understand it.τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν
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Then maybe the baby is best served if the father blesses himself, that he might be patient and loving, not be too absent in the baby's life, not smack junior around too much, try to keep the family intact, try not to fall for every get rich quick scheme that comes down the pike.Originally posted by jay santos View PostRead through this thread. I have to say I am quite disappointed in any father in this church who thinks an anonymous patriarch has a greater ability than he does to give his kid a blessing, filled with counsel, prophecy, or anything else you might think is strictly the place of a patriarch (besides declaring lineage).
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In addition to that how about....blessing the baby that he/she will have a nurturing and loving mother, who will be understanding and not too quick to judge, be a good example, will sacrifice and not always put her own needs above the child's, and not spend every dime of the family income on miscellaneous stuff that really isn't needed.Originally posted by Katy Lied View PostThen maybe the baby is best served if the father blesses himself, that he might be patient and loving, not be too absent in the baby's life, not smack junior around too much, try to keep the family intact, try not to fall for every get rich quick scheme that comes down the pike.“Not the victory but the action. Not the goal but the game. In the deed the glory.”
"All things are measured against Nebraska." falafel
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I love that story about the Lion King movie. Congratulations on being the kind of father that evokes those images in your children's minds.Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View PostWatching each of our six kids grow and become truly excellent adults has been a source of indescribable joy for me. When our youngest, David, was 2 years old, I took him to see the newly released The Lion King. I held him on my lap while he watched, transfixed, but I was uncertain if he understood what was going on. Early in the movie, as Simba and Mufasa were playing, wrestling, laughing, David turned around and said excitedly, “You and me, dad!” My heart melted (although I was vaguely disturbed later when he didn’t seem terribly bothered when Mufasa was trampled by the wildebeests), and although I haven’t watched it since, The Lion King remains a favorite for me.
I thought about this thread last night when, at my son’s request, I gave him a father’s blessing prior to his leaving this morning for the MTC. I wish I had the faith and /or power to give my kids everything my heart desires for them, but I don’t, and that deficiency was made clear to me yet again last night. But it was still a great moment, as I recounted how he had blessed us, and how he would yet bless the lives of many who are, knowingly and unknowingly, waiting for him.
I remember a great scene from Roots, in which Omoro holds his newborn son above his head, underneath a starlit sky, and proclaims, “Kunta Kinte, behold the only thing greater than yourself.” I’ve always thought that was a model for fathers’ blessings. Such blessings don’t change externalities, but they create for the father (and, if old enough, the child) a greater awareness of one’s own potential and responsibilities.
Having finished his packing and preparation last night, David came into my office and asked, “So, you wanna watch Lion King?” We didn’t, but it was a superb final evening with the last of the brood. Mrs. PAC and I feel a bit like we’ve been trampled by wildebeests today, but we’re thankful a great kid is on his way to becoming even greater.
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I like the idea of an unbiased person pronouncing a blessing on a person (including specific warnings and guidance for the future) and the patriarch often times fits that role. A father will be biased by his own feelings and thoughts as well as the tendencies and personality of the son/daughter. These biases are fine for father's blessings but they would seem to inhibit the patriarchal blessing.
My blessing was general in most aspects but there are some specific things said and I still wonder how they will be fulfilled....if they will be fulfilled (no, I wasn't told I'd see Christ).
FWIW, I've been told that a father can give a patriarchal blessing to a child, absent the declaration of lineage. The blessing should be recorded and kept within the family instead of sent up to the church as is done with blessings from a patriarch. I've never had one of these and I've never done one but I've been told it can be done. Maybe someone with the CHOI could see if it is alluded to anywhere in there."Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf
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PAC - thanks for sharing. Truly.
I've always understood that the primary difference between a father's blessing and a patriarchal blessing is the declaration of lineage. And that if a father is following the spirit when giving a blessing, then that blessing carries the same weight as a patriarch.
I would never think to write down the stuff to say. I've always done my best to try and prepare before giving a blessing with prayer and contemplation and then when the time comes, just be open to the things that come to my mind. I've never worried about giving a blessing that would contradict a Patriarchal blessing - my assumptions being that A) life is fluid. Due to the choices we make and the circumstances around us, situations change. To me this means that a blessing given today might bring with it different advice/etc. than one given last year. and B) if the person giving the blessing is listening to the spirit (and the spirit directs the blessing) then the will not contradict each other.
As I understand it - folks that aren't originally from one of the tribes are adopted into the linage - typically of Ephraim. That is the reason so many are from that tribe. So - in that sense it is very symbolic.Originally posted by Non Sequitur View PostI've always wondered about the whole linage thing. When I was a kid everyone I knew who was caucasian was said to belong to the tribe of Ephraim. It always seemed strange to me that everyone coincidently shared the same linage. Is the linage proclaimed in the PB supposed to be a literal linage or a symbolic linage? If it is literal, has anyone tried to scientifically test the veracity of people sharing the same linage?
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I just made a few comments in each blessing of my kids to not do anything that would cause me or their mother to get a phone call from the police department during the middle of the night. Also, that if they want to legally change their name when they're of adult age, to be sure to notify SLC so that change could be reflected upon the records of the church as well.Originally posted by Katy Lied View PostThen maybe the baby is best served if the father blesses himself, that he might be patient and loving, not be too absent in the baby's life, not smack junior around too much, try to keep the family intact, try not to fall for every get rich quick scheme that comes down the pike."Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill
"I only know what I hear on the news." - Dear Leader
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That's a wonderful story PAC. It's a tough day to hug that youngest good-bye for two years. I hope the day goes well.
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Also, I totally lifted this for my talk. I reworked it to fit my theme of "ministering that matters" about how to minister to those in the midst of a faith crisis, but there's a debt to you for this post. You make it seem easy.Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View PostWatching each of our six kids grow and become truly excellent adults has been a source of indescribable joy for me. When our youngest, David, was 2 years old, I took him to see the newly released The Lion King. I held him on my lap while he watched, transfixed, but I was uncertain if he understood what was going on. Early in the movie, as Simba and Mufasa were playing, wrestling, laughing, David turned around and said excitedly, “You and me, dad!” My heart melted (although I was vaguely disturbed later when he didn’t seem terribly bothered when Mufasa was trampled by the wildebeests), and although I haven’t watched it since, The Lion King remains a favorite for me.
I thought about this thread last night when, at my son’s request, I gave him a father’s blessing prior to his leaving this morning for the MTC. I wish I had the faith and /or power to give my kids everything my heart desires for them, but I don’t, and that deficiency was made clear to me yet again last night. But it was still a great moment, as I recounted how he had blessed us, and how he would yet bless the lives of many who are, knowingly and unknowingly, waiting for him.
I remember a great scene from Roots, in which Omoro holds his newborn son above his head, underneath a starlit sky, and proclaims, “Kunta Kinte, behold the only thing greater than yourself.” I’ve always thought that was a model for fathers’ blessings. Such blessings don’t change externalities, but they create for the father (and, if old enough, the child) a greater awareness of one’s own potential and responsibilities.
Having finished his packing and preparation last night, David came into my office and asked, “So, you wanna watch Lion King?” We didn’t, but it was a superb final evening with the last of the brood. Mrs. PAC and I feel a bit like we’ve been trampled by wildebeests today, but we’re thankful a great kid is on his way to becoming even greater."Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon
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That was nice of you to recall this, but it was a little tough to read. Several weeks after I wrote that, Mrs. PAC and I drove to the Oakland Airport to meet our son who had returned way too soon from his mission due to unresolved pre-mission issues, among other things. Watching him walk toward us, slumped and obviously devastated, was one of the toughest moments of our lives. Several here have commented that the day one's kid comes home from a mission is one of the greatest days of one's life. I know from personal experience that this is true. I also know from personal experience that it can be one of the worst.Originally posted by wuapinmon View PostAlso, I totally lifted this for my talk. I reworked it to fit my theme of "ministering that matters" about how to minister to those in the midst of a faith crisis, but there's a debt to you for this post. You make it seem easy.
But good things can often flow from even the greatest disappointments. Our son's return sparked a lot of conversations between my wife and me, and with our youngest. In some respects our relationship is even better than before; it's certainly more open and honest. I think a major reason why a person who leaves the faith becomes estranged from, or is shunned by, faithful family members is that the faithful sometimes see the apostate's rejection of faith as a rejection of them; they take it very personally. My wife and I now realize that isn't the case at all. A person's rejection of the Church isn't necessarily a rejection of the person's family, especially not if the family remains loving, understanding and accepting (of course, if that rejection includes behaviors that are truly immoral, illegal or simply destructive, then that's a different story).
Our family members have a wide range of belief and activity in the Church, but everyone is leading good, productive lives, we remain very close as a family and everyone loves to get together (of course, Levin may disabuse me of this notion, but I'm blissful in my naivete). As I've mentioned before, it'd be nice to gather around the altar of the temple, but we think it may be even more important that all of us love to gather around the kitchen table.
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Nice going, Wuap. Any other painful memories you'd like to dredge up?Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View PostThat was nice of you to recall this, but it was a little tough to read. Several weeks after I wrote that, Mrs. PAC and I drove to the Oakland Airport to meet our son who had returned way too soon from his mission due to unresolved pre-mission issues, among other things. Watching him walk toward us, slumped and obviously devastated, was one of the toughest moments of our lives. Several here have commented that the day one's kid comes home from a mission is one of the greatest days of one's life. I know from personal experience that this is true. I also know from personal experience that it can be one of the worst.
But good things can often flow from even the greatest disappointments. Our son's return sparked a lot of conversations between my wife and me, and with our youngest. In some respects our relationship is even better than before; it's certainly more open and honest. I think a major reason why a person who leaves the faith becomes estranged from, or is shunned by, faithful family members is that the faithful sometimes see the apostate's rejection of faith as a rejection of them; they take it very personally. My wife and I now realize that isn't the case at all. A person's rejection of the Church isn't necessarily a rejection of the person's family, especially not if the family remains loving, understanding and accepting (of course, if that rejection includes behaviors that are truly immoral, illegal or simply destructive, then that's a different story).
Our family members have a wide range of belief and activity in the Church, but everyone is leading good, productive lives, we remain very close as a family and everyone loves to get together (of course, Levin may disabuse me of this notion, but I'm blissful in my naivete). As I've mentioned before, it'd be nice to gather around the altar of the temple, but we think it may be even more important that all of us love to gather around the kitchen table.
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You got a painful boil or something?!Originally posted by YOhio View PostNice going, Wuap. Any other painful memories you'd like to dredge up?Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
-General George S. Patton
I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
-DOCTOR Wuap
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Originally posted by Non Sequitur View PostI've always wondered about the whole linage thing. When I was a kid everyone I knew who was caucasian was said to belong to the tribe of Ephraim. It always seemed strange to me that everyone coincidently shared the same linage. Is the linage proclaimed in the PB supposed to be a literal linage or a symbolic linage? If it is literal, has anyone tried to scientifically test the veracity of people sharing the same linage?Before leaving for the mission field last summer, one of my sons received his Patriarchal blessing. We were all surprised when he was proclaimed to belong to another tribe of Israel, one that most have heard of but one I had never before heard of being pronounced in one's lineage. After the blessing, the Stake Patriarch asked us if we had any questions. So I asked him about my son's lineage since I hail from a long line of Ephraimites, like most LDS. The answer was that a Patriarchal blessing is different than a Father's infant blessing or confirmation blessing in two important ways. A declaration of one's lineage and a pronouncement of one's spiritual gifts. It was this patriarch's view that the two are related. One's tribe is associated in some way with one's spiritual gifts. Also, those gifts and abilities (he expanded it to gifts + abilities) are connected to the gifts and abilities that one will need to draw upon during future service in the church. His advice to my son was to study about his tribe in the OT and prayerfully inquire how to apply his spiritual gifts.Originally posted by ERCougar View PostIt can't be literal. I personally know several cases of fathers and sons with different lineages.
That said, I have no idea what it means or what value it has. I'm not implying that it doesn't have any, but I sure don't understand it.
I'm still not sure what to make of this partiarch's view. Clearly, there are spiritual gifts that span multiple tribes of Israel and my OT knowledge is admittedly weak when it comes to the various tribes of Israel outside of what we've been taught about Judah, Joseph, Ephraim, Levi, etc. I will state that this patriarch really does know his OT very well. He taught GD years ago during one of the rotations of the OT and I was captivated - until the ward was split and we were no longer in the same ward. Just thought I'd pass that along as there were questions about PB lineage and I placed some credibility with this answer.“Not the victory but the action. Not the goal but the game. In the deed the glory.”
"All things are measured against Nebraska." falafel
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