Much more interesting Oaks thread

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  • KillerDog
    a.k.a. K-dog
    • Feb 2009
    • 4196

    #1

    Much more interesting Oaks thread

    Why don't we talk a little about one of the interesting points of his speech instead of focusing on misstating his position for emotional arguments in favor of our pet passions.

    RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

    The title of Oaks October 13 speech is Religious Freedom. Oaks begins by citing an example of religious freedom being won at great cost in Mongolia. He then cites some of the values of religious freedom. Oaks then reads the text of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and mentions the establishment clause just to point out it's existence but not to address it at length. He then talks about the area of the First Amendment that he wants to focus on "the United Stats shall have no law 'prohibiting the free exercise' of religion." Oaks points out that what he calls "religious freedom" is the pre-eminent right in the Constitution and is a cornerstone of American democracy. Oaks then points out that religious freedom is balanced by the governments responsibility to protect the health and safety of all.

    "The inherent conflict between the precious religious freedom of the people and the legitimate regulatory responsibilities of the government is the central issue of religious freedom." Folks, that's the point of Oaks talk and the only interesting topic in it. How should we balance the right to freely exercise our religious beliefs, as a people, with our responsibility to protect the health and safety of all.

    As Oaks says, "[t]he problems are not simple...." "Unpopular minority religions are especially dependent upon a constitutional guarantee of free exercise of religion." Personally, I think the following paragraph may be the most interesting in his discourse:

    "Religious belief is obviously protected against government action. The practice of that belief must have some limits, as I suggested earlier. But unless the guarantee of free exercise of religion gives a religious actor great protection against government prohibitions than are already guaranteed to all actors by other provisions of the constitution (like freedom of speech), what is the special value of [Ureligious[/U] freedom? Surely the First Amendment guarantee of free exercise of religion was intended to grant more freedom to religious action than to other kinds of action. Treating actions based on religous belief the same as actions based on other systems of belief should not be enough to satisfy the special place of religion in the United States Constitution."

    Oaks uses this pivotal paragraph to springboard into addressing areas where religious voices deserve extra protection (i.e. religious speech in the public square) and points out that religious freedom is being diluted by other "civil rights." His example on other "civil rights" is the "newly alleged 'civil right' of same-gender couples to enjoy the privileges of marriage." I find that an interesting take on the gay rights argument.

    Even an opponent of Oaks would be hard pressed to avoid acknowledging him a great legal mind. More importantly, the argument is relatively novel to me. I have not considered that the gay marriage debate might be receiving so much focus from the LDS Church because it is an effort to marginalize religious freedom in favor of a "civil right" recently alleged to exist and be protectible under a catch all provision of the Constitution.

    Anyway, below is the link. Read for yourselves and lets hear some debate on the actual topic of his presentation rather than tilting at windmills. Or, if you'd rather, continue to ride Mr. Quixote -- eventually those giants will fall.

    Transcript of Elder Dallin H. Oaks speech on religious freedom given at BYU-Idaho on 13 October 2009.
  • Flystripper
    Degenerate Gambler
    • Nov 2008
    • 14136

    #2
    I am no expert in the constitution, but I am not sure that most constitution experts would agree with him that the founders intended freedom of religion to have more protection than that which is granted to freedom of speech.

    It is an interesting topic though.
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

    Comment

    • SeattleUte
      Faith crisis consultant
      • Nov 2008
      • 20837

      #3
      Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
      I am no expert in the constitution, but I am not sure that most constitution experts would agree with him that the founders intended freedom of religion to have more protection than that which is granted to freedom of speech.
      It is an interesting topic though.
      Most of the Founders were as atheist as Finderson.
      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

      --Jonathan Swift

      Comment

      • KillerDog
        a.k.a. K-dog
        • Feb 2009
        • 4196

        #4
        Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
        I am no expert in the constitution, but I am not sure that most constitution experts would agree with him that the founders intended freedom of religion to have more protection than that which is granted to freedom of speech.

        It is an interesting topic though.
        What I read him to be saying is that religious speech should have a greater protection than other types of speech (which I believe is supported by Constitutional law on the subject). That is different than saying religious freedom is more important than freedom of speech. He is pointing out that there is a special type of right associated with practice and belief of religion that is greater than the rights of a person doing the same exact thing without religious basis.

        Comment

        • KillerDog
          a.k.a. K-dog
          • Feb 2009
          • 4196

          #5
          Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
          Most of the Founders were as atheist as Finderson.
          Very on point SU.

          Comment

          • Indy Coug
            Heartless Bastard
            • Dec 2008
            • 18747

            #6
            Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
            Most of the Founders were as atheist as Finderson.
            Which is why the only reason why you see so many references to a Creator or God is because of all the encoded messages they were leaving behind for Nicolas Cage.
            Everything in life is an approximation.

            http://twitter.com/CougarStats

            Comment

            • DU Ute
              RIP CUF
              • Dec 2008
              • 7393

              #7
              Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
              Most of the Founders were as atheist as Finderson.
              Did any of them hang out at Burning Man?
              "In conclusion, let me give a shout-out to dirty sex. What a great thing it is" - Northwestcoug
              "And you people wonder why you've had extermination orders issued against you." - landpoke
              "Can't . . . let . . . foolish statements . . . by . . . BYU fans . . . go . . . unanswered . . . ." - LA Ute

              Comment

              • Jarid in Cedar
                CS Institutional Memory
                • Jun 2009
                • 13234

                #8
                Originally posted by KillerDog View Post
                Why don't we talk a little about one of the interesting points of his speech instead of focusing on misstating his position for emotional arguments in favor of our pet passions.

                RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

                The title of Oaks October 13 speech is Religious Freedom. Oaks begins by citing an example of religious freedom being won at great cost in Mongolia. He then cites some of the values of religious freedom. Oaks then reads the text of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and mentions the establishment clause just to point out it's existence but not to address it at length. He then talks about the area of the First Amendment that he wants to focus on "the United Stats shall have no law 'prohibiting the free exercise' of religion." Oaks points out that what he calls "religious freedom" is the pre-eminent right in the Constitution and is a cornerstone of American democracy. Oaks then points out that religious freedom is balanced by the governments responsibility to protect the health and safety of all.

                "The inherent conflict between the precious religious freedom of the people and the legitimate regulatory responsibilities of the government is the central issue of religious freedom." Folks, that's the point of Oaks talk and the only interesting topic in it. How should we balance the right to freely exercise our religious beliefs, as a people, with our responsibility to protect the health and safety of all.

                As Oaks says, "[t]he problems are not simple...." "Unpopular minority religions are especially dependent upon a constitutional guarantee of free exercise of religion." Personally, I think the following paragraph may be the most interesting in his discourse:

                "Religious belief is obviously protected against government action. The practice of that belief must have some limits, as I suggested earlier. But unless the guarantee of free exercise of religion gives a religious actor great protection against government prohibitions than are already guaranteed to all actors by other provisions of the constitution (like freedom of speech), what is the special value of [Ureligious[/U] freedom? Surely the First Amendment guarantee of free exercise of religion was intended to grant more freedom to religious action than to other kinds of action. Treating actions based on religous belief the same as actions based on other systems of belief should not be enough to satisfy the special place of religion in the United States Constitution."

                Oaks uses this pivotal paragraph to springboard into addressing areas where religious voices deserve extra protection (i.e. religious speech in the public square) and points out that religious freedom is being diluted by other "civil rights." His example on other "civil rights" is the "newly alleged 'civil right' of same-gender couples to enjoy the privileges of marriage." I find that an interesting take on the gay rights argument.

                Even an opponent of Oaks would be hard pressed to avoid acknowledging him a great legal mind. More importantly, the argument is relatively novel to me. I have not considered that the gay marriage debate might be receiving so much focus from the LDS Church because it is an effort to marginalize religious freedom in favor of a "civil right" recently alleged to exist and be protectible under a catch all provision of the Constitution.

                Anyway, below is the link. Read for yourselves and lets hear some debate on the actual topic of his presentation rather than tilting at windmills. Or, if you'd rather, continue to ride Mr. Quixote -- eventually those giants will fall.

                http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/...igious-freedom
                Do you agree with his assessment of these to phrases? That religious freedom is the cornerstone of our Democracy? That Religous freedom is elevated above other rights described in the Bill of Rights?

                Oaks makes a long stretch in this to slant the argument to his liking. The colonies were not subjected to restriction of religious freedom by the English Crown. The formation of our government was more centered around self governing and the lack of representation in the English parliament.

                Also what he argues is a net sum zero game where gains in civil rights are offset by losses of religious rights/freedoms. If that is the case there should be some easy examples in the civil rights movements in the 60's where religions lost some of their freedoms as civil rights gains were made by AA's.
                "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

                "They talk about the economy this year. Hey, my hairline is in recession, my waistline is in inflation. Altogether, I'm in a depression."

                "I like to bike. I could beat Lance Armstrong, only because he couldn't pass me if he was behind me."

                -Rick Majerus

                Comment

                • SeattleUte
                  Faith crisis consultant
                  • Nov 2008
                  • 20837

                  #9
                  Originally posted by KillerDog View Post
                  What I read him to be saying is that religious speech should have a greater protection than other types of speech (which I believe is supported by Constitutional law on the subject). That is different than saying religious freedom is more important than freedom of speech. He is pointing out that there is a special type of right associated with practice and belief of religion that is greater than the rights of a person doing the same exact thing without religious basis.
                  All speech is presumptively absolutely protected subject to narrow exceptions like defamation, national security, obscenity (this pretty much a dead letter), copyright and other IP laws. I doubt he's saying religious speech "deserves more protection." That would be nonsense. Like all other speech outside the exceptions (including Dishonor Lists) it's absolutely protected. Are you saying he's saying government should enjoin Dishonor Lists because they embarrass Prop. 8 supporters, hence giving religious exercise higher protection than gays' rights to speak out against Prop. 8 supporters? That would be unconstitutional for at least two reasons I can think of. Oaks is smarter than that.

                  So far you've not validated the title of this thread.
                  When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                  --Jonathan Swift

                  Comment

                  • RobinFinderson
                    Banned
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 10548

                    #10
                    Originally posted by DU Ute View Post
                    Did any of them hang out at Burning Man?
                    I don't 'hang out' at burning man. I revel in it, scooping it up in my fists and rub it in my hair.

                    Comment

                    • SeattleUte
                      Faith crisis consultant
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 20837

                      #11
                      Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
                      I don't 'hang out' at burning man. I revel in it, scooping it up in my fists and rub it in my hair.
                      Why must you incite the mob? You are playing with fire here.
                      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                      --Jonathan Swift

                      Comment

                      • RobinFinderson
                        Banned
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 10548

                        #12
                        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                        Why must you incite the mob? You are playing with fire here.
                        Well, if it calms the mob any, it has been at least three years since I last washed away any traces of Burning Man pong.

                        Comment

                        • DU Ute
                          RIP CUF
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 7393

                          #13
                          Originally posted by RobinFinderson View Post
                          I don't 'hang out' at burning man. I revel in it, scooping it up in my fists and rub it in my hair.
                          Gross, what does it take to get that out?
                          "In conclusion, let me give a shout-out to dirty sex. What a great thing it is" - Northwestcoug
                          "And you people wonder why you've had extermination orders issued against you." - landpoke
                          "Can't . . . let . . . foolish statements . . . by . . . BYU fans . . . go . . . unanswered . . . ." - LA Ute

                          Comment

                          • RobinFinderson
                            Banned
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 10548

                            #14
                            Originally posted by DU Ute View Post
                            Gross, what does it take to get that out?

                            Comment

                            • SeattleUte
                              Faith crisis consultant
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 20837

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                              Which is why the only reason why you see so many references to a Creator or God is because of all the encoded messages they were leaving behind for Nicolas Cage.
                              They were using it in a metaphorical way, to mean the cosmos, nature, whatever created us (Einstein, thousands of other people who matter have done this). At most they were deists, which is a euphamism for atheist. None of them believed in angelic visitations and such; they did not believe in your God. And you don't get more hard core atheist than Thomas Paine, and probably Ben Franklin.

                              The founding documents may drop "Creator" or "God" a lot but they are nothing if not concerted efforts to curb, bridle, fence off religion. Of course there's the Establishment Clause. But even the Freedom of Religion clause is itself in opposition to religion. They were worried about theocracies, hence religious freedom an effective way to avoid them. Of course, everyone regards religious freedom as including the right to unbelief, which is absolutely what they intended.
                              Last edited by SeattleUte; 10-15-2009, 01:29 PM.
                              When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                              --Jonathan Swift

                              Comment

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