The Bacchai and the BYU

[Pheidippides]

and some (probably fewer) I would not want to see at the Y for the same reason.

My wife and I have a theory about the Y: you do not send your kids there in the hope they develop testimonies.

Every worldly thing I can think of that you would find at a normal college was present at BYU when I was there, except for classically done art depicting nudity and sexuality.

There is a lot of sex of all types. There are drugs of any kind. People get hammered. Date rape happens. It is normal college life, except that a lot of that stuff stays "hidden" and is swept under the rug. Sure, it happens less than at other colleges, but that's not the point.

So if my kid wants to have a great time with people of a similar religious background on a large scale, sure, BYU is great. If she wants to go to BYU to find out what she believes, I got news for her: BYU is going to make her more confused than ever (I haven't mentioned the religion classes yet, which I am still thoroughly opposed to).

Please do not read this to say that I am sad I went there, because I am not.

[LA Ute]

My wife and I have a theory about the Y: you do not send your kids there in the hope they develop testimonies.

Every worldly thing I can think of that you would find at a normal college was present at BYU when I was there, except for classically done art depicting nudity and sexuality.

There is a lot of sex of all types. There are drugs of any kind. People get hammered. Date rape happens. It is normal college life, except that a lot of that stuff stays "hidden" and is swept under the rug. Sure, it happens less than at other colleges, but that's not the point.

So if my kid wants to have a great time with people of a similar religious background on a large scale, sure, BYU is great. If she wants to go to BYU to find out what she believes, I got news for her: BYU is going to make her more confused than ever (I haven't mentioned the religion classes yet, which I am still thoroughly opposed to).

Please do not read this to say that I am sad I went there, because I am not.

I enjoyed my two semester at the Y, but I do recall being pretty surprised, in my youthful naivete, to find that all the things you describe were happening (doubtless at a much lower level than at just about any secular university). To me the decision about whether or not to go to BYU is more about what the student is like than about what the Y is like. 20 years ago Southern Californians still saw it as sort of a finishing school for LDS kids. I think everyone has moved on from that outlook.

[Pheidippides]

I enjoyed my two semester at the Y, but I do recall being pretty surprised, in my youthful naivete, to find that all the things you describe were happening (doubtless at a much lower level than at just about any secular university). To me the decision about whether or not to go to BYU is more about what the student is like than about what the Y is like. 20 years ago Southern Californians still saw it as sort of a finishing school for LDS kids. I think everyone has moved on from that outlook.

I think that's right, and while I'd be more than happy for my kid to go to BYU, I would be just as happy if they wanted to go to the U. Or Texas. Or Texas A&M. Or LSU. Or Harvard, but they can pay their own way then.

BYU's experience is unique, but it is not an experience that everybody needs, wants or enjoys, and there is nothing wrong with countless other schools across the nation. One thing I will insist on is a reasonably recognizable school (normal or liberal arts, take your pick) so that graduate school is always an option. But that is a pretty broad net.

[Surfah]

My wife and I have a theory about the Y: you do not send your kids there in the hope they develop testimonies.

Every worldly thing I can think of that you would find at a normal college was present at BYU when I was there, except for classically done art depicting nudity and sexuality.

There is a lot of sex of all types. There are drugs of any kind. People get hammered. Date rape happens. It is normal college life, except that a lot of that stuff stays "hidden" and is swept under the rug. Sure, it happens less than at other colleges, but that's not the point.

So if my kid wants to have a great time with people of a similar religious background on a large scale, sure, BYU is great. If she wants to go to BYU to find out what she believes, I got news for her: BYU is going to make her more confused than ever (I haven't mentioned the religion classes yet, which I am still thoroughly opposed to).

Please do not read this to say that I am sad I went there, because I am not.

BYU is a lot like the mission in this respect isn't it?

[Pheidippides]

BYU is a lot like the mission in this respect isn't it?

I was either really, really naive on my mission or had one where everybody pretty much behaved themselves (I still think it was the latter, although that does not preclude the former, I guess) so I will have to take your word for it.

[kccougar]

This article from the Trib seems to clearly indicate BYU doesn't have a problem with the content of the play but the way the material was presented in this interpretation.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_13396853?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com

Sorensen took responsibility for the unfortunate timing of the decision, as he had expected a more traditional approach for the production. "I should have had those conversations earlier," he said. "It's as simple as that."

The timing of the cancelation was a little off, agreed Larry West, the show's director, but BYU handled things as best as they could, given the situation. "I understand their position and their feeling," he said. "They have every right to do that and they handled it in a real dignified and generous manner."

This article from the DesNews indicates the same. I don't see how this is a slab in the face of anyone really.

"The expectation on our part was that it was going to be a traditional Greek theater interpretation," Sorensen said Tuesday afternoon. "I should have been on top of that and asked more questions."

Sorensen said that after a discussion with U. professor Jim Svendsen, the play's producer, the two reached a mutual decision to cancel the BYU performance.

Larry West, who directed the play for the University of Utah, acknowledged that the staging of the production is unconventional. The production includes a classic rock-and-roll score written by Joe Payne that is performed by local rock musicians.

"It's great fun," West said. "I still think we hold onto the intent of the original version. It's about trying to decide who is God, and in our society, we treat our rock and roll stars like gods."

BYU has hosted a performance of the University of Utah's annual Greek theater since 1982 and plans to continue doing so. The productions are popular with students of various disciplines, from theater to literature.

The Euripides play is on BYU's schedule next year, Sorensen said. "Many have read it, and now they can see it and talk about it." But the U.'s current presentation didn't work for a setting on BYU's campus.

"We felt that there were just some problematic staging things that would be difficult for some of our audience members," Sorensen said.

West said BYU isn't the first audience to have problems with "The Bakkhai."

"This play has been controversial since it was written 2,500 years ago. It deals with sex, violence and wine," he said. "Even the most conservative, the most tame translation can't avoid those issues."

West praised BYU's handling of the issue.

"The BYU folks were nothing but respectful and kind in dealing with this matter. I think the whole way they played it was just top notch," he said.

Although the play was canceled, a related, free lecture given by Svendsen at 4 p.m. in the de Jong Concert Hall was still held, followed by a 25-minute question-and-answer session.

[LA Ute]

I was either really, really naive on my mission or had one where everybody pretty much behaved themselves (I still think it was the latter, although that does not preclude the former, I guess) so I will have to take your word for it.

I never witnessed any serious shenanigans on my mission, but I sure heard about them. Two guys in my MTC group (then called the LTM, but only PAC and I recall that terminology) were sent home halfway through. In one of those cases I was working with the former companion of one of those two, and he came to me, guilt-ridden, over having "covered" for that elder when he went out to see prostitutes. I set him up in a phone call with the MP and bowed out. His former comp was sent home (and ex'd,that being the approach in those days). He himself was in limbo for a couple of weeks but got to stay and ended up completing a pretty successful mission.

Again, I was naive and was really surprised to find missionaries out who really didn't want to be there. I've always thought that would be a tough way to spend two years.

[Pheidippides]

I never witnessed any serious shenanigans on my mission, but I sure heard about them. Two guys in my MTC group (then called the LTM, but only PAC and I recall that terminology) were sent home halfway through. In one of those cases I was working with the former companion of one of those two, and he came to me, guilt-ridden, over having "covered" for that elder when he went out to see prostitutes. I set him up in a phone call with the MP and bowed out. His former comp was sent home (and ex'd,that being the approach in those days). He himself was in limbo for a couple of weeks but got to stay and ended up completing a pretty successful mission.

Again, I was naive and was really surprised to find missionaries out who really didn't want to be there. I've always thought that would be a tough way to spend two years.

I saw a lot of this when I taught at the MTC, and while I think we have made strides, I think we need to do a better job with our missionaries (not the raising the bar stuff - I mean when they are out). Some are grade-A missionaries, and good for them. Some of them don't know why they are out and struggle spiritually but are simple and work hard, and they usually turn out okay. Some of them have various mental maladies, and I think we should do a better job of treating them (side note: in a psych class in which we were debating the merits of medication for mental illness, I was shocked at how many people thought medication was inappropriate in all cases - well over 50% in 1999). Some of them are just out there because dad is giving them a new car, and I think we should ship their butts home.

More than anything, though, I think we need to do two things:

1. We need to tone down the "mandatory" rhetoric. It is very damaging for people who do not go for whatever reason (and there are many reasons) or who come back early for whatever reason (and, again, there are many, many reasons).

2. We need to institute some sort of "detox" program for those who get back. In it's nature, I view a mission as a two-year active military deployment in terms of some of (not all!) the effects on the person (I'm not arguing equivalency of activity, only effect). One of the things I've read is that WWII-era soldiers had a few weeks aboard a ship together to detox, and that helped them adjust, whereas people who serve in Iraq now only have a few hours on a plane, and then they are back home. This has been theorized to be the cause of the Gulf War Syndrome and other things. I think a similar principle applies to missionaries. I would go so far as to say that it is inarguable (even though a few here will try) that there are a significant number of returning missionaries that could do with some good counseling and adjustment training beyond the brief chat with their MP as a result of their time in the mission. IOW, the time spent in complete cultural isolation messes them up and I think the Church should pay to help people work through that. I can cite a score of people as examples.

[kccougar]

2. We need to institute some sort of "detox" program for those who get back. In it's nature, I view a mission as a two-year active military deployment in terms of some of (not all!) the effects on the person (I'm not arguing equivalency of activity, only effect). One of the things I've read is that WWII-era soldiers had a few weeks aboard a ship together to detox, and that helped them adjust, whereas people who serve in Iraq now only have a few hours on a plane, and then they are back home. This has been theorized to be the cause of the Gulf War Syndrome and other things. I think a similar principle applies to missionaries. I would go so far as to say that it is inarguable (even though a few here will try) that there are a significant number of returning missionaries that could do with some good counseling and adjustment training beyond the brief chat with their MP as a result of their time in the mission. IOW, the time spent in complete cultural isolation messes them up and I think the Church should pay to help people work through that. I can cite a score of people as examples.

Maybe it's because I served a state-side mission and didn't go through huge culture shock (though Wilkes-Barre, PA is pretty strange) or maybe I wasn't a dedicated enough missionary, but I've never understood the the problem with readjusting after a mission. In my case, I was working and dating within two days of coming home. What causes the post-mission trauma?

[Green Lantern]

Maybe it's because I served a state-side mission and didn't go through huge culture shock (though Wilkes-Barre, PA is pretty strange) or maybe I wasn't a dedicated enough missionary, but I've never understood the the problem with readjusting after a mission. In my case, I was working and dating within two days of coming home. What causes the post-mission trauma?

Lack of studliness?

[kccougar]

Lack of studliness?

That's what I'd like to believe.

[TripletDaddy]

Maybe it's because I served a state-side mission and didn't go through huge culture shock (though Wilkes-Barre, PA is pretty strange) or maybe I wasn't a dedicated enough missionary, but I've never understood the the problem with readjusting after a mission. In my case, I was working and dating within two days of coming home. What causes the post-mission trauma?

I came home mid-week. I went to an Erasure concert that weekend.

If I could counsel RMs, I would advise them to NOT shop for new clothes until having been home for a few weeks. I came home, didn't have much by way of clothes, went to the store the next day...and made some really poor decisions. I won't give away specifics but I will give a few hints: "sweaters," "cable-knit," and "green denim."

[Pheidippides]

Maybe it's because I served a state-side mission and didn't go through huge culture shock (though Wilkes-Barre, PA is pretty strange) or maybe I wasn't a dedicated enough missionary, but I've never understood the the problem with readjusting after a mission. In my case, I was working and dating within two days of coming home. What causes the post-mission trauma?

A lot of things. I suspect that foreign serving missionaries experience a disproportionate part of the trauma, although I (like you) didn't have much of a problem adjusting. And (to be clear) I'm not just talking about things like dating. I speculate the causes are varied but largely revolve around the pressures of performance, isolation from everything "normal" and working 80 hours weeks for two years on end. Again, for some people (like you and me, apparently) it's not an issue, but that doesn't diminish the issue for those who have struggles. And I know very many who do, both from foreign missions and stateside service.

There are also bad things that happen in addition to the normal missionary stuff. In particular, I know of one former mission president who deserves to be horsewhipped for the hell he put his missionaries (and one sister in particular) through. Most of the men (and women - you cannot discount the effect of an MP's wife) are good and honorable people. But there are rotten apples as well, here and there, or people who use methods that have too much in common with Jack Welsh and not enough with Jesus Christ.

[LA Ute]

If I could counsel RMs, I would advise them to NOT shop for new clothes until having been home for a few weeks. I came home, didn't have much by way of clothes, went to the store the next day...and made some really poor decisions. I won't give away specifics but I will give a few hints: "sweaters," "cable-knit," and "green denim."

LOL. So very true. Anyone here ever hear of Seafarer jeans? Think bell-bottoms. Very popular in 1973. Chortle-inducing in 1975.

[falafel]

If I could counsel RMs, I would advise them to NOT shop for new clothes until having been home for a few weeks. I came home, didn't have much by way of clothes, went to the store the next day...and made some really poor decisions. I won't give away specifics but I will give a few hints: "sweaters," "cable-knit," and "green denim."

Ugh, I did the same thing. I bought some cargo pants and some doc martens. This was within the first week of being home. It took probably 4 months for me to admit to myself that I wasn't in style.