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Pelagius gets Knowitanical

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  • Pelagius gets Knowitanical

    A few years ago Terryl Givens wrote an article where he argued that the Book of Mormon and Mormonism more generally advocates a rather unique form of revelation (Givens, Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, (2001)),. Givens refers to the concept as revelation as dialogue -- or dialogic revelation. Dialogic revelation is not really found in mainstream christianity. Yes, other christian theologies certainly believe in personalized revelation bit that is probably best understood as "revelation as inner experience" rather than dialogic revelation. While this sounds quite similar to Mormon revelatory models it is usually quite different: "the experience of God ... may be called grace, and grace, insofar as it brings new awareness of the divine, is revelation." Also typically a prayer is a call or plea for divine activity or intervention but prayers do not usually involve a dialogue. So a prayer is answered in the same way that falling rain answers the query of "is it going to rain today?"

    So what is meant by Dialogic revelation in Mormonism? Essentially, we as Mormons have a literalized understanding of divine discourse. It is actually dialogue or really can be dialogue (it isn't always). Givens explains it this way:
    One finds in the Book of Mormon a version of revelation that falls well outside the parameters Dulles charted, and something far beyond a forceful spiritual intimation or the abrupt insight mentioned by Sanday. In the Book of Mormon, prayer frequently—and dramatically—evokes an answer that is impossible to mistake as anything other than an individualized, dialogic response to a highly particularized question.

    ...

    [I]n the world of the Book of Mormon, concepts like revelation, prayer, inspiration, and mystery will find powerful and substantive redefinition. That may well be the Book of Mormon's most significant and revolutionary—as well as controversial—contribution to religious thinking. The particularity and specificity, the vividness, the concreteness, and the accessibility of revelatory experience—those realities both underlie and overshadow the narrated history and doctrine that constitute the record. The "knowability" of all truth, the openness of mystery, the reality of personal revelation, find vivid illustration within the record and invite reenactment outside it.
    Mormonism pushes the boundaries of dialogic revelation pretty far since we democratize it ... Even the revelatory dialogue in the Old Testament doesn't go this far. Certainly diagolic revelation is not entirely unique to Mormonism: the seekers come to mind. But as Givens' summarizes:
    Whether or not Mormonism's model was the first to appeal to radically individualistic cravings for spiritual experience by means of a literalized understanding of divine discourse, the Book of Mormon was apparently the most effective vehicle of the age for eliciting, condoning, and affirming such personal encounters with divine powers.
    So what what does this have to do with the typical Mormon expresssion of faith: I know that Jesus is the Christ, I know the church is true, or I know the Book of Mormon is true. To me these expressions are a short hand way for a member to express that they are confident they have experienced a dialogic revelation. If a non-mormon asked a member to explain how they knew the above things that member would almost certainly describe a dialogic encounter with God. Thus when a Mormon expresses their faith it has a very different context than other faiths usually . More importantly the Mormon usually also believes the context is quite different.

    Given the preceeding it is hardly a surprise that we use a different language to declare and talk about our faith. It is also a mode of delivery that emphasizes the confidence that a perceived dialogic encounter with God engenders. Implicit in the "I know" I think is the notion that part of being Mormon is believing that dialogic revelation can produce maximum confidence relative to other revelatory models.

    So is the use of "true" an abuse of language? My Bayesian side wants to scream that it is ... that we really just mean that dialogic revelation produces a higher posterior odds ratio than other methods ... Why can't we just say that? On the other hand, saying I know in this context is probably a bit like using a first order Taylor series approximation ... sure it is sometimes misleading but really it is pretty good if you keep the context in mind.
    Last edited by pelagius; 09-22-2009, 11:07 PM.

  • #2
    I'm glad you're posting in the Foyer more often.
    "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
    The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

    Comment


    • #3
      That last paragraph is brilliant.
      "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
      "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
      "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
        That last paragraph is brilliant.
        I figure you like any paragraph on religion that works in a reference to Bayes rule and a Taylor series.

        Comment


        • #5
          I really enjoy observing the conversation of you folks with a lot of knowledge. I don't know all the words, but I get the drift and I enjoy the read.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pelagius View Post
            So is the use of "true" an abuse of language? My Bayesian side wants to scream that it is ... that we really just mean that dialogic revelation produces a higher posterior odds ratio than other methods ... Why can't we just say that? On the other hand, saying I know in this context is probably a bit like using a first order Taylor series approximation ... sure it is sometimes misleading but really it is pretty good if you keep the context in mind.
            Because most people wouldn't understand it.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by pelagius View Post
              So is the use of "true" an abuse of language? My Bayesian side wants to scream that it is ... that we really just mean that dialogic revelation produces a higher posterior odds ratio than other methods ... Why can't we just say that? On the other hand, saying I know in this context is probably a bit like using a first order Taylor series approximation ... sure it is sometimes misleading but really it is pretty good if you keep the context in mind.
              Isn't Alma 32 really a Bayesian approach to faith?
              Everything in life is an approximation.

              http://twitter.com/CougarStats

              Comment


              • #8
                "dialogic revelation produces a higher posterior odds ratio than other methods ... "

                i really want to work this into my next testimony nmeeting.
                PLesa excuse the tpyos.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                  Isn't Alma 32 really a Bayesian approach to faith?
                  Certainly in as much as it stresses "updating" ... so I can get behind that in a general sense.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    An excellent post. It strikes me that our "dialogic" view of revelation certainly has a lot to do with our anthropomorphic view of God - you know, "body, parts, and passions," which is pretty close to unique among modern faiths. I.e., we believe in a being we can talk to. I think that sometimes we are too hard on the use of the term "know" when people use it in the sense they "are confident they have experienced a dialogic revelation," as you say. In lay terms, we are just saying the Holy Ghost has manifested something to us. It's simply knowledge on a spiritual level.
                    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                    ― W.H. Auden


                    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pelagius View Post
                      Certainly in as much as it stresses "updating" ... so I can get behind that in a general sense.
                      That's what I had in mind.
                      Everything in life is an approximation.

                      http://twitter.com/CougarStats

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by creekster View Post
                        "dialogic revelation produces a higher posterior odds ratio than other methods ... "

                        i really want to work this into my next testimony nmeeting.
                        Really? I find that goes over better in Elder's Quorum or High Priest Group.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                          An excellent post. It strikes me that our "dialogic" view of revelation certainly has a lot to do with our anthropomorphic view of God - you know, "body, parts, and passions," which is pretty close to unique among modern faiths. I.e., we believe in a being we can talk to. I think that sometimes we are too hard on the use of the term "know" when people use it in the sense they "are confident they have experienced a dialogic revelation," as you say. In lay terms, we are just saying the Holy Ghost has manifested something to us. It's simply knowledge on a spiritual level.
                          Nicely put. I think the tie in with anthropomorphism is interesting. I think one of the reasons mainstream christianity finds dialogic revelation (or a very literal view of revelation or the revelatory process) problematic is because of resistance to anything that pushes theology towards anthropomorphism. This is in part why what Givens calls "revelations as inner experience" is actually quite limited.

                          I also agree we tend to be too hard on the use of the term know ... I think there is a tendency to find it intellectually embarressing in some quarters. My post in part was trying to give a rationale for why I don't think it is embarressing without being revisionist about what we mean by "I know "... something like love is the highest form of knowing.
                          Last edited by pelagius; 09-23-2009, 07:52 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            bump
                            "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
                            The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                              bump
                              You will notice, and I want the record to show, I have never once referred to pelagius as a "needlenecked wanker." He's got some Sparta to go with all this Athens!
                              Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
                              -General George S. Patton

                              I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
                              -DOCTOR Wuap

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