The End of Michael Moore

[Colly Wolly]

How much real liberty does a poor, uneducated man or woman with dependent children really have in America?

A lot.

[RobinFinderson]

Robin, let me remind you that the acronyms Nazi and USSR both have "socialism" in them.

How ironic that I'm saying there's no such thing as socialism any longer (becuase it's failed spectacularly worldwide) and you are saying there's no such thing as capitalism. I wonder if citizens of Western European countries and the US and Japan and even China agree with you.

What it really comes down to is this... the film, which is titled "Capitalism, a love story," is no more about capitalism than it is about love. Moore's beef is with corporations, and what happens when corporations get too big and exercise too much influence over government. There are many variations of 'capitalism' with which Moore would have no problem.

Of course this means that to make a smart critique of Moore's actual arguments would require one to know what those argument are. You have no clue here, SU. But you should watch the film. I bet you would find it entertaining, and as a bonus, you might actually be able to offer a real critique of Moore's arguments.

[RobinFinderson]

A lot.

The day you demonstrate that you have exercised a modicum of critical thought about what 'liberty' means, I might care about your opinion.

[Colly Wolly]

The day you demonstrate that you have exercised a modicum of critical thought about what 'liberty' means, I might care about your opinion.

How may I so demonstrate?

[RobinFinderson]

How may I so demonstrate?

Start by explaining what 'liberty' means. Exlain how you came to an understanding of that conception of liberty. Who are the thinkers whose ideas have shaped your thinking? Why do you believe your particular conception of liberty in light of arguments for other models (i.e. demonstrate that you have considered the other models and found them wanting)?

[Colly Wolly]

Start by explaining what 'liberty' means. Exlain how you came to an understanding of that conception of liberty. Who are the thinkers whose ideas have shaped your thinking? Why do you believe your particular conception of liberty in light of arguments for other models (i.e. demonstrate that you have considered the other models and found them wanting)?

Meh. Screw that.

[RobinFinderson]

Meh. Screw that.

Don't worry Colly Wolly. I'm sure you have thought about something deeply enough to have an opinion that matters.

[Colly Wolly]

Don't worry Colly Wolly. I'm sure you have thought about something deeply enough to have an opinion that matters.

I don't know dude. All the time you seem to have spent formulating your own opinions hasn't helped you get a single clue. Seems like a gargantuan waste of time. I guess some people either get it, or they don't.

[RobinFinderson]

I don't know dude. All the time you seem to have spent formulating your own opinions hasn't helped you get a single clue. Seems like a gargantuan waste of time. I guess some people either get it, or they don't.

Some times you have to go down a path far enough to see why it matters.

[Colly Wolly]

Some times you have to go down a path far enough to see why it matters.

Very true. And other times a simple history lesson or a rational judgement at face value is all you need.

[SeattleUte]

I am often ashamed of the callousness and lack of empathy evinced by enoomic libertarians in their sayings.

That being said, I will say that the reason capitalism is scary is it exacts person accountability. In this it is ruthless. We got a lesson in this a year ago. The banks thought they could fool the markets. But their irresponsible loans were like shit hid under a snowbank.

Whatever other evil might be put at capitalism's feet--polution, deforestation, whatever--are ampliphied in a socialist system. Corporations have defeated polio, elimated hunger in whole countries, endowed universities. They are also ultimately subserviat to public opinion. They are democracies themselves, serving two sets of demanding, free constituents, shareholders and consumers.

[il Padrino Ute]

Whatever other evil might be put at capitalism's feet--polution, deforestation, whatever--are ampliphied in a socialist system. Corporations have defeated polio, elimated hunger in whole countries, endowed universities. They are also ultimately subserviat to public opinion. They are democracies themselves, serving two sets of demanding, free constituents, shareholders and consumers.

Bravo! Well said.

[SeattleUte]

Robin, certainly a Nietsche scholar such as yourself is aware that Nietzche called capitalism the apotheosis of Christianity, the destination of its historical progression. I can get the exact quote when I get a chance. Nietzche, of course, intended this as a condemnation of Christianity, but he may have paid it its greatest compliment ever.

[RobinFinderson]

The development of the polio vaccine and the green revolution are the result of corporations seeking a profit?? Really?? Enlighten us.

I am often ashamed of the callousness and lack of empathy evinced by enoomic libertarians in their sayings.

That being said, I will say that the reason capitalism is scary is it exacts person accountability. In this it is ruthless. We got a lesson in this a year ago. The banks thought they could fool the markets. But their irresponsible loans were like shit hid under a snowbank.

Whatever other evil might be put at capitalism's feet--polution, deforestation, whatever--are ampliphied in a socialist system. Corporations have defeated polio, elimated hunger in whole countries, endowed universities. They are also ultimately subserviat to public opinion. They are democracies themselves, serving two sets of demanding, free constituents, shareholders and consumers.

[Jarid in Cedar]

The development of the polio vaccine and the green revolution are the result of corporations seeking a profit?? Really?? Enlighten us.

As with many medical advances, they would not happen if they were not profitable