For those considering a legal career

[Paperback Writer]

Much the same could be said for MBA programs.

Engineering is the way to go as far as debt/income ratios go for non-top tier programs. I knew several people in my undergrad that graduated sans debt (myself included) and my M.S. only resulted in about $4k in debt, and that only because we had a kid during that time. Most engineering students work and go to school, whereas that is discouraged in Law/B school.

I know of some of some engineering grads from my program who ended up working outside of engineering because they couldn't find a job but if you only have $3-8K in debt, it's easier to stomach.

I will always recommend engineering to people looking for career.

Agree with the comments about engineering degrees. However, I question the work part: "most engineering students work and go to school". Is that on the undergraduate or MS level? I have a son in a ranked engineering program (undergraduate) and neither he nor any of his fellow students work. The engineering programs at this school are fairly lock-step. Few electives and full engineering course loads each semester. There's no way my kid or any of his peers could handle working and 16-18 hours of engineering courses at this school. I do realize this is just one example and other engineering programs may not be as rigorous. But there's a reason why engineering degrees are so valuable - not everyone can make it through and it's competitive to get admitted in the first place.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Agree with the comments about engineering degrees. However, I question the work part: "most engineering students work and go to school". Is that on the undergraduate or MS level? I have a son in a ranked engineering program (undergraduate) and neither he nor any of his fellow students work. The engineering programs at this school are fairly lock-step. Few electives and full engineering course loads each semester. There's no way my kid or any of his peers could handle working and 16-18 hours of engineering courses at this school. I do realize this is just one example and other engineering programs may not be as rigorous. But there's a reason why engineering degrees are so valuable - not everyone can make it through and it's competitive to get admitted in the first place.

He didn't work in school, but my brother made more than enough interning during the summers to pay his school bills(and then some). He worked as an intern his last 2 years of his BS and every summer when working on his MS.

[Uncle Ted]

Agree with the comments about engineering degrees. However, I question the work part: "most engineering students work and go to school". Is that on the undergraduate or MS level? I have a son in a ranked engineering program (undergraduate) and neither he nor any of his fellow students work. The engineering programs at this school are fairly lock-step. Few electives and full engineering course loads each semester. There's no way my kid or any of his peers could handle working and 16-18 hours of engineering courses at this school. I do realize this is just one example and other engineering programs may not be as rigorous. But there's a reason why engineering degrees are so valuable - not everyone can make it through and it's competitive to get admitted in the first place.

I worked while in engineering school but in a top lock-step program like your son in it would be hard to do. My grades suffered a because of work but after the first job that may not matter much. Also, as JIC mentioned there are usually a lot of opportunities for engineering students to intern during the summers. Our oldest daughter interned as a ChemE student and made some good money. Also, that extra experience, I believe, helped her get job offers now that she is getting ready to graduate. If I was your son I would definitely be looking for engineering intern opportunities for the summers.

My brother got a PhD in engineering at a top 5 school. In the process he racked up a *lot* of debt even with his scholarships. He, however, paid off those loans in the first couple of years of being out of school. If I was doing it again I wouldn't be too afraid of taking on debt for engineering school as long as I could see the light at the end of the long tunnel.

[wally]

Agree with the comments about engineering degrees. However, I question the work part: "most engineering students work and go to school". Is that on the undergraduate or MS level? I have a son in a ranked engineering program (undergraduate) and neither he nor any of his fellow students work. The engineering programs at this school are fairly lock-step. Few electives and full engineering course loads each semester. There's no way my kid or any of his peers could handle working and 16-18 hours of engineering courses at this school. I do realize this is just one example and other engineering programs may not be as rigorous. But there's a reason why engineering degrees are so valuable - not everyone can make it through and it's competitive to get admitted in the first place.

He didn't work in school, but my brother made more than enough interning during the summers to pay his school bills(and then some). He worked as an intern his last 2 years of his BS and every summer when working on his MS.

I worked while in engineering school but in a top lock-step program like your son in it would be hard to do. My grades suffered a because of work but after the first job that may not matter much. Also, as JIC mentioned there are usually a lot of opportunities for engineering students to intern during the summers. Our oldest daughter interned as a ChemE student and made some good money. Also, that extra experience, I believe, helped her get job offers now that she is getting ready to graduate. If I was your son I would definitely be looking for engineering intern opportunities for the summers.

My brother got a PhD in engineering at a top 5 school. In the process he racked up a *lot* of debt even with his scholarships. He, however, paid off those loans in the first couple of years of being out of school. If I was doing it again I wouldn't be too afraid of taking on debt for engineering school as long as I could see the light at the end of the long tunnel.

I graduated in the 2000's with a BS and MS. I did not graduate from a "top lock-step program", Maybe therein lies all the difference, I don't know.

I did what Jarid's brother did, working summers mostly, but I also worked 10-ish hours a week during the school year. I did this during 16 credit hour semesters. It was very difficult and I did not have a lot of free time. I did have the advantage of going to school at the U and being quite close to SLC where my work office was located, making commuting easy.

However in my field (Environmental/Civil Engineering) covers more a breadth of material rather than depth of material, in my opinion. Some courses in Mechanical/Chemical/Electrical Engineering seem to me to be a lot more intensive and time consuming. Also, in my program we were always encouraged to find internships while in school. There is only so much you can do in the classroom before you need to get out on a real construction project etc. This may not be the same for other Engineering disciplines.

In my opinion there is not an enormous benefit (in my perspective) from graduating from a "top program" in Civil/Enviro, because entry level pay is fairly uniform across the board, and advancement (esp. at large firms) is highly managed.

Also, Engineering colleges are set up differently than Business/Law colleges. As the article points out, law/business schools are hichly dependent on tuition as income, whereas Engineering colleges are not so much. My graduate tuition was way less than the tuition for the MBA and Law programs at the U. Additionally Professors in Engineering are valued in part by bringing in public and private research contracts that oftentimes finance fellowships and stipends for Engineering students which further defray tuition and other expenses.

It is totally conceivable that an average H.S. student with no college scholarship or parental financial support, that chooses engineering, works hard, lives frugally, and catches a few breaks with internships/jobs, can graduate debt free and start pulling down upwards of $50-60k/year as a starting salary.

[kccougar]

Agree with the comments about engineering degrees. However, I question the work part: "most engineering students work and go to school". Is that on the undergraduate or MS level? I have a son in a ranked engineering program (undergraduate) and neither he nor any of his fellow students work. The engineering programs at this school are fairly lock-step. Few electives and full engineering course loads each semester. There's no way my kid or any of his peers could handle working and 16-18 hours of engineering courses at this school. I do realize this is just one example and other engineering programs may not be as rigorous. But there's a reason why engineering degrees are so valuable - not everyone can make it through and it's competitive to get admitted in the first place.

I held down a full-time job (3:30-midnight, M-F) while I completed my engineering degree at the U. When I went to grad school, I had a research assistantship that paid me $600/month and half my tuition. It required me to put in between 10 and 20 hrs a week, but most of it went toward the research for my degree. I finished my undergrad without any debt but racked up about $10k getting my MS.

[Paperback Writer]

It is totally conceivable that an average H.S. student with... no college scholarship or parental financial support, that chooses engineering, works hard, lives frugally, and catches a few breaks with internships/jobs, can graduate debt free and start pulling down upwards of $50-60k/year as a starting salary.

Thanks for the reply. Just want to point out that "an average H.S. student" is probably not going to wind up in engineering. In my mind, those guys are in the gifted category.

[Uncle Ted]

Now is the time to go to law school...

The organization behind the LSAT reported that the number of tests it administered this year dropped by more than 16%, the largest decline in more than a decade. ...

[...]

For some law schools, the dwindling number of test-takers represents a serious long-term challenge. What I’d anticipate is that you’ll see the biggest falloff in applications in the bottom end of the law school food chain,” said Andrew Morriss of the University of Alabama School of Law. “Those schools are going to have significant difficulty because they are dependent on tuition to fund themselves and they’ll either have to cut class size to maintain standards, or accept students with lower credentials.”

It is easier than ever to get into law school these days so what are you waiting for? Do your part in keeping legal fees low for everyone.

Just ignore the part about the legal market shrinking as technology allows more low-end legal work to be moved overseas (God bless those engineers) and corporations demanding less pay for lawyers and their firms.

[wally]

Now is the time to go to law school...



It is easier than ever to get into law school these days so what are you waiting for? Do your part in keeping legal fees low for everyone.

Just ignore the part about the legal market shrinking as technology allows more low-end legal work to be moved overseas (God bless those engineers) and corporations demanding less pay for lawyers and their firms.

Yes please people, go into law. We don't need any more engineers. The fewer there are of us, the better it is for us.

[old_gregg]

Now is the time to go to law school...



It is easier than ever to get into law school these days so what are you waiting for? Do your part in keeping legal fees low for everyone.

Just ignore the part about the legal market shrinking as technology allows more low-end legal work to be moved overseas (God bless those engineers) and corporations demanding less pay for lawyers and their firms.

interesting. lsats administered dropped by almost 10% last year too. it looks like the # matriculating has stayed pretty constant, however, which makes me think that the 16% and 10% decreases were off the bottom end of the distribution. it's a bummer for those of us taking the lsat in the next 12 months or so because updates to schools' admissions indexes (i.e. widening the parameters of potential students' numbers) will likely lag behind overall lsat statistical variances. also, the dilution at the bottom of the curve has fallen away.