If you were Bronco and were offered the Colorado job

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Yea, just pointing out if Bronco turned the Lobo program around like he did here, he wouldn't be beloved by the fans their either.

How about those Georgia fans?? How do you run off a guy who won the NC two years ago.

I think Bronco's world when it comes to fan complaints is pretty easy going compared to other places.

Auburn was horrible this year. Chizik won with Cam Newton and full stable of players left by Tuberville. On top of that they had to hire a security firm to police their own players.

The firing of Tuberville was ridiculous, the firing of Chizik was not.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ask the fans calling for Bronco's head. They believe BYU should be 12-0 with Lark as QB.


I will put it this way. If Bronco were a head coach at New Mexico and turned that program around like Bronco has BYU. Everyone would put Bronco as a #1 prospect to be a BYU head coach. Grass is not always greener!

Yeah, like BYU and New Mexico have similar standards.

There is a good argument to be made here, but you aren't making it.

[Cougarmandias]

And I agree...to a point...assuming that the status quo remains in place and I have no reason to think anything will change. Set expectations accordingly.

But I really wish BYU would fundamentally change its honor code. All these recruiting restrictions with the HC/BYU culture are self imposed. So my hope in vain is that BYU adapts an HC like any other university and gets rid of the dress and behavorial portions of its HC. Admit the best students and the best athletes who are eligible. Stop trying to admit the "best Mormons who qualify". Sorry for stepping on the soapbox.

Fat chance.

Look at BYU's extremely high yield rate, comparable to one of the Ivy's. Look at the caliber of student it attracts, which is better than it should be given the school's actual quality.

BYU being 'special' is what drives all that. The Honor Code is a big ol' part of being special.

Parents drive a lot of these kinds of decisions, and lots of parents, especially LDS parents, love that BYU is as anal as all get out.

I don't want to sidetrack the conversation. Just pointing out that if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

[Cougarmandias]

Meh.

There's a possibility that BYU wins more games this year with a QB change, especially around the Utah/Boise games, but I haven't heard much from the 12-0 crowd. That just sounds silly to me.

Agreed. Fans will forgive a lot for coaches who are hungry for wins and who get as frustrated by losses as the fans do. Bronco's problem this year is that in the Riley situation he's put something else ahead of winning and he appears to be stubbornly staying the course when someone who was frustrated with the losses would be looking to make changes (for the record, I think Bronco is frustrated and will be making changes, but he doesn't *appear* that way).

[Paperback Writer]

Fat chance.

Look at BYU's extremely high yield rate, comparable to one of the Ivy's. Look at the caliber of student it attracts, which is better than it should be given the school's actual quality.

BYU being 'special' is what drives all that. The Honor Code is a big ol' part of being special.

Parents drive a lot of these kinds of decisions, and lots of parents, especially LDS parents, love that BYU is as anal as all get out.

I don't want to sidetrack the conversation. Just pointing out that if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

I'll just say that in my view, BYU's academic excellence probably drives that a lot more than the HC. That's the reason for the high yield rate of the Ivys.

And what makes BYU special is not the HC; it's high quality students who try to live the standards of the LDS church. The great majority will do that with or without the honor code. And if my kid goes to BYU and decides not to attend church or otherwise makes mistakes; I don't think he should be subject to the threat of expulsion from the university.

But I do understand your point. I know of other parents who will only consider a "church school" for their kids and are all to happy with compelled compliance of LDS standards by BYU. I'm just not one of them.

Sorry the the sidetrack....but have a little faith. IMO, BYU will be just as "special" without their HC, be a lot more diversified, and have a much improved football team.

[wapiti]

Yea, that's it. There was a Georgia coach, really superb person, in trouble a couple of years ago with fans. Did he get canned or was he the coach this year?

Georgia kept their coach despite the calls for his head. Good move.

[Cougarmandias]

I'll just say that in my view, BYU's academic excellence probably drives that a lot more than the HC. That's the reason for the high yield rate of the Ivys.

And what makes BYU special is not the HC; it's high quality students who try to live the standards of the LDS church. The great majority will do that with or without the honor code. And if my kid goes to BYU and decides not to attend church or otherwise makes mistakes; I don't think he should be subject to the threat of expulsion from the university.

But I do understand your point. I know of other parents who will only consider a "church school" for their kids and are all to happy with compelled compliance of LDS standards by BYU. I'm just not one of them.

Sorry the the sidetrack....but have a little faith. IMO, BYU will be just as "special" without their HC, be a lot more diversified, and have a much improved football team.

BYU is nowhere as excellent academically as you think, its certainly not in the Ivies class.

I don't see any reason to have faith in something that's not going to happen.

[Paperback Writer]

BYU is nowhere as excellent academically as you think, its certainly not in the Ivies class.

I don't see any reason to have faith in something that's not going to happen.

Where did I make an arguement that BYU is in the same class as Ivy league schools? I'm well aware of BYU's academic ranking as I've got kids evaluating their college options at the moment. I just mentioned that academic considerations probably have more to do with a college's "Yield" than being "special" because of an honor code. BYU hasn't always had dress code provisions and ecclesiastical endorsements. They had talented students before those were instituted at BYU and will continue to have talented students if they ever get rid of those provisions of the HC.

[Shaka]

Where did I make an arguement that BYU is in the same class as Ivy league schools? I'm well aware of BYU's academic ranking as I've got kids evaluating their college options at the moment. I just mentioned that academic considerations probably have more to do with a college's "Yield" than being "special" because of an honor code. BYU hasn't always had dress code provisions and ecclesiastical endorsements. They had talented students before those were instituted at BYU and will continue to have talented students if they ever get rid of those provisions of the HC.

I was evaluating universities when BYU started ratcheting up its academic standards in the late eighties and then stuck around for a long time after I got back from my mission in the early nineties. I lived through the transition from a school that admitted almost any return missionary to one that demanded top high school students.

Personally I thought BYU got less special every time they increased academic standards. Before BYU had a nice cross section of students ranging from moderately dumb jocks to the super smart. When the academic standards increased that nice cross section disappeared and the student body got nerdier and the hot girls (ok not all of them) started going to UVU. In a way I wish the Church would quit trying to make BYU into an academic powerhouse and get that nice mix back by reserving space for the super smart and then putting everyone else who wanted to go into a lottery. That nice cross would section would return.

[MarkGrace]

This just seems like a pissing match between TH and Bronco. TH is telling Bronco he's not a sacred cow right now, so Bronco is pushing back to show TH he has options.

[OceanBlue]

What are his options ? Not Colorado from what I have read. All the rumors are out of Utah which tells me its his agent. Cal ? Nope. Andersen is the coveted coach out of Utah and Petersen is most coveted of all. Unless I am missing something Bronco's ship has sailed. Once a teams fan base loses faith in a coach its very hard to get it back.

[Uncle Ted]

I was evaluating universities when BYU started ratcheting up its academic standards in the late eighties and then stuck around for a long time after I got back from my mission in the early nineties. I lived through the transition from a school that admitted almost any return missionary to one that demanded top high school students.

Personally I thought BYU got less special every time they increased academic standards. Before BYU had a nice cross section of students ranging from moderately dumb jocks to the super smart. When the academic standards increased that nice cross section disappeared and the student body got nerdier and the hot girls (ok not all of them) started going to UVU. In a way I wish the Church would quit trying to make BYU into an academic powerhouse and get that nice mix back by reserving space for the super smart and then putting everyone else who wanted to go into a lottery. That nice cross would section would return.

A lottery? BYU is a private school, the "Harvard of the West". Does Harvard have a lottery?

Challenged by President Spencer W. Kimball at his inauguration to help BYU become an “educational Mt. Everest,” President Jeffrey Holland has responded enthusiastically. Striving to make BYU the “Harvard of the West” might be a worthy enough goal for some, but President Holland has gone on record as preferring to see Harvard and Yale fighting “to see who can become the BYU of the East!”

[...]

With space at BYU now at a premium, there is little room for the sluggish, the half-hearted, the uncommitted. “It is in every way a privilege and not a right,” says President Holland, “for us to be here at BYU.”

There are places for the sluggish, half-hearted, and uncommitted. Places like Ricks (I don't recognize the name BYU-Idaho), UVU, and the University of Utah.

[Shaka]

A lottery? BYU is a private school, the "Harvard of the West". Does Harvard have a lottery?



There are places for the sluggish, half-hearted, and uncommitted. Places like Ricks (I don't recognize the name BYU-Idaho), UVU, and the University of Utah.

I saw very few of the people of which you speak. Most were just regular folks that did reasonably well when they got to BYU.

Also the intramural competition slipped when BYU started increasing academic standards.

[Paperback Writer]

I was evaluating universities when BYU started ratcheting up its academic standards in the late eighties and then stuck around for a long time after I got back from my mission in the early nineties. I lived through the transition from a school that admitted almost any return missionary to one that demanded top high school students.

Personally I thought BYU got less special every time they increased academic standards. Before BYU had a nice cross section of students ranging from moderately dumb jocks to the super smart. When the academic standards increased that nice cross section disappeared and the student body got nerdier and the hot girls (ok not all of them) started going to UVU. In a way I wish the Church would quit trying to make BYU into an academic powerhouse and get that nice mix back by reserving space for the super smart and then putting everyone else who wanted to go into a lottery. That nice cross would section would return.

In the late eighties I was a graduate student at BYU in the Tanner building working a grad assistantship gig in the Smoot building. So like Shaka, I saw the transition occur to demanding top students; but my view was also from inside the administration.

Uncle Ted links Elder Holland's talk about BYU becoming a Harvard, etc. A more apt comparison is Notre Dame. And I saw this new trend while at BYU with BYU inching closer to Notre Dame acceptance rates which I remember as about 25%. In my view, it won't be long before BYU is below 50% acceptance and it might be there already (I suspect BYU fudges their published admission percentages).

I agree with Shaka that every time BYU increases admission requirements the student body becomes less diversified and more nerdy. And I also agree that BYU needs to have a better mix of students. But a lottery is not the solution-more on that later.

[SOAPBOX ON]What I see happening in BYU admissions is that BYU is trying to not just get the best students but also the best orthodox Mormon students who qualify. Specifically, BYU now requires Seminary teacher input on the BYU application (This is in addition to Bishop and SP endorsement). In my view, it's a step backwards. I don't have a problem with a checkbox for seminary graduate but I have a problem with a seminary teacher that was assigned to my kid, may not be a good teacher, and who may not get along very well with my kid. Its anecdotal, but I've heard complaints by some parents in my corner of the world lament that their kid didn't get accepted to BYU despite her being president of the Laurels, being a sterling example to all the YW, being well liked, etc. They didn't appreciate my response that maybe, just maybe, the president of the Laurels should have taken an AP class or two while in high school if they expected to be accepted to a higly ranked university.[SOAPBOX OFF]

Getting back to the lottery idea, I think BYU admissions does a very poor job of student evaluation. Typically, they just look at GPA and ACT score and draw a line. My understanding is that there is some middle ground where they actually evaluate the student application and look at extracurriculars and read the essays, etc. But for the most part, BYU doesn't really attempt to diversify. So if BYU admissions predominantly goes off of GPA and ACT then they are going to get an incoming class of nerds. Any attempts to go beyond that tend to be in the direction of eliminating the "less worthy" which actually makes BYU less diverse. So rather than have a lottery, I think BYU should put more time and resources on student evaluation. Perhaps they are because they no longer send out early acceptances. To be fair, BYU is in a difficult position. What happens when they accept the football captain at the expense of the nerd with better academic credentials?

[Shaka]

I should qualify my lottery statement a bit. Minimum qualifying standards should be established with weight being given to AP classes and extracurricular activities. After that put those that qualify in a hat and draw them out.