Goin' to the Poin! 2012 Poinsettia Bowl Thread

[Eddie]

There are a lot of people on here who will still claim they were 100% right on Heaps even if he has huge success at Kansas.

They still won't buy into the idea that he was grossly mismanaged during his career, and that the biggest factor leading to his poor play in 2011 was an inept offense created by an OC that had no idea what he was doing.

We'll just see lame ass copouts like, "Well good for Heaps, he finally decided to start working hard and developed some toughness during his magical one year redshirt that turns QBs from terrible to awesome".

I think you are mostly arguing with voices in your head (OK - and maybe Shaka).

Most people here agree that BYU's offense has issues beyond the QB. Most hear feel like Doman has not been good more often than he has been good.

Most also agree that Heaps was sucking it up - for multiple games - as a sophomore. I'm not sure if you noticed, but it's true.

What you can debate is whether Heaps should've started the next game after being pulled against USU, or if Nelson should've started going forward. I would venture that most believe that Heaps should've started the next game.

The problem is that you are so vociferous against Nelson and for Heaps that you can't seem to view things objectively any better than the folks you are poking with your stick.

Congratulations. You were right. Nelson isn't very good - particularly when injured. Did you happen to notice that most people here are of that same opinion? I didn't think so...

[Green Monstah]

There are a lot of people on here who will still claim they were 100% right on Heaps even if he has huge success at Kansas.

They still won't buy into the idea that he was grossly mismanaged during his career, and that the biggest factor leading to his poor play in 2011 was an inept offense created by an OC that had no idea what he was doing.
We'll just see lame ass copouts like, "Well good for Heaps, he finally decided to start working hard and developed some toughness during his magical one year redshirt that turns QBs from terrible to awesome".

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the bolded part is now the consensus among BYU fans, isn't it?

[beefytee]

There are a lot of people on here who will still claim they were 100% right on Heaps even if he has huge success at Kansas.

They still won't buy into the idea that he was grossly mismanaged during his career, and that the biggest factor leading to his poor play in 2011 was an inept offense created by an OC that had no idea what he was doing.

We'll just see lame ass copouts like, "Well good for Heaps, he finally decided to start working hard and developed some toughness during his magical one year redshirt that turns QBs from terrible to awesome".

I think Heaps had a better chance at success had he stuck around and I wish he would have.

I have my doubts that he will work miracles in Kansas. I haven't followed Kansas much this year. Are they a really young team? No FBS wins this year doesn't bode well for things turning around within the next 2.

[Hsaru]

I have a feeling Heaps will do relatively well at Kansas and we will all have ample opportunity to increase our dissatisfaction with Bronco and Doman. Indy will find this funny.

There are a lot of people on here who will still claim they were 100% right on Heaps even if he has huge success at Kansas.

They still won't buy into the idea that he was grossly mismanaged during his career, and that the biggest factor leading to his poor play in 2011 was an inept offense created by an OC that had no idea what he was doing.

We'll just see lame ass copouts like, "Well good for Heaps, he finally decided to start working hard and developed some toughness during his magical one year redshirt that turns QBs from terrible to awesome".

[pelagius]

Yes, I agree that Heaps' performance was mostly poor against average to good defenses.

Even against many/most below average defenses he struggled: not a lot of points or efficiency. Wyoming in 2010 is a good example. A below average defense (not totally awful though) but late enough in the season that it was disappointing (but maybe things just hadn't clicked so a sharp inference can't be made). The Utah St game is another team in that range. Not a totally awful defense but not average either. On the other hand, Utah 2010 really was ok considering Utah's quality (it wasn't great but it wasn't awful either).

Since the goal of football is to win the game, it was the "right call" to put Heaps on the bench during the USU game. However, winning that game was one of the worst things that has ever happened to BYU football.

I don't remember what I was thinking at the time (probably that either choice was justifiable: Heaps or Nelson (although I think I thought the probability that Heaps would leave was low)), but it is really too bad that BYU didn't let Heaps start against San Jose St. That was a below average but not awful defense. If he struggles in the first half of San Jose St, you pull him and put in Nelson. Given the bet the coaches made on Heaps, it seems like you really should give heaps at least the first half of San Jose St (but I am obviously benefiting from a lot of ex post information when I say this so may be it is completely unfair ... and I still don't really dislike the 2011 decision to play Nelson ... I dislike the QB decisions in 2008-2010 in terms of the development strategy).

[Coach McGuirk]

Yes, I agree that Heaps' performance was mostly poor against average to good defenses. Since the goal of football is to win the game, it was the "right call" to put Heaps on the bench during the USU game. However, winning that game was one of the worst things that has ever happened to BYU football. I don't think Heaps was handled or developed properly from USU forward and it would have benefited the program in the long run to maintain the lion share of the offensive philosophy of Robert Anae while avoiding the offensive direction that Riley Nelson and Brandon Doman took BYU from USU forward.

I have a text message somewhere of me and cougjunkie discussing it during the USU game. That was the end of heaps, Riley did his thing against USU and walked an easy peasy schedule. Even when Heaps came back and torched the same defenses riley was, but even a little more impressively, there was no credit. Riley was the man. Except he wasnt/isnt.

[Flystripper]

Flystripper, I've got nothing against Heaps. And it may be turn out that most of what happened was Bronco's and Doman's fault. I can't tell. But one thing I am pretty sure of is Heaps never played well against anything but awful defenses (unfortunately, he started playing absolutely dreadful defenses around the same time you would expect a freshman quarterback to improve ... I really wish that late in 2010 he faced a couple of average defenses ... instead he played awful defenses and one good defense).


This is not an argument that Heaps should have been benched (BYU bet heavy on Heaps in 2010 so we probably should have been patient (one can certainly make a compelling case for that) ... anything approaching greatness from 2010-2013 was made based on the bet the Heaps would develop).

Yes, I agree that Heaps' performance was mostly poor against average to good defenses. Since the goal of football is to win the game, it was the "right call" to put Heaps on the bench during the USU game. However, winning that game was one of the worst things that has ever happened to BYU football. I don't think Heaps was handled or developed properly from USU forward and it would have benefited the program in the long run to maintain the lion share of the offensive philosophy of Robert Anae while avoiding the offensive direction that Riley Nelson and Brandon Doman took BYU from USU forward.

[Indy Coug]

This is not an argument that Heaps should have been benched (BYU bet heavy on Heaps in 2010 so we probably should have been patient (one can certainly make a compelling case for that) ... anything approaching greatness from 2010-2013 was made based on the bet the Heaps would develop).

+1.

[pelagius]

I have a feeling Heaps will do relatively well at Kansas and we will all have ample opportunity to increase our dissatisfaction with Bronco and Doman. Indy will find this funny.

Flystripper, I've got nothing against Heaps. And it may be turn out that most of what happened was Bronco's and Doman's fault. I can't tell. But one thing I am pretty sure of is Heaps never played well against anything but awful defenses (unfortunately, he started playing absolutely dreadful defenses around the same time you would expect a freshman quarterback to improve ... I really wish that late in 2010 he faced a couple of average defenses ... instead he played awful defenses and one good defense).

     +-----------------------------------------------+
     | year        opponent   scored     eff   drank |
     |-----------------------------------------------|
337. | 2010      Washington       23   104.4      31 |
339. | 2010      Florida St       10    89.9      17 |
340. | 2010          Nevada       13    96.1      52 |
341. | 2010         Utah St       16    84.6      82 |
342. | 2010    San Diego St       24   107.2      59 |
     |-----------------------------------------------|
343. | 2010             TCU        3    58.8       5 |
344. | 2010         Wyoming       25   100.6      94 |
345. | 2010            UNLV       55   162.2     173 |
346. | 2010     Colorado St       49   242.6     116 |
347. | 2010      New Mexico       40   137.5     258 |
     |-----------------------------------------------|
348. | 2010            Utah       16   114.7      39 |
349. | 2010            UTEP       52   171.7     118 |
350. | 2011     Mississippi       14   116.3      68 |
351. | 2011           Texas       16    98.5       6 |
352. | 2011            Utah       10   107.8      21 |
     |-----------------------------------------------|
353. | 2011             UCF       24      74      49 |
354. | 2011         Utah St       27      80      91 |
360. | 2011           Idaho       42   175.7     121 |
361. | 2011   New Mexico St       42     145     154 |
     +-----------------------------------------------+

This is not an argument that Heaps should have been benched (BYU bet heavy on Heaps in 2010 so we probably should have been patient (one can certainly make a pretty good case for that) ... anything approaching greatness from 2010-2013 was made based on the bet the Heaps would develop).

[Indy Coug]

I have a feeling Heaps will do relatively well at Kansas and we will all have ample opportunity to increase our dissatisfaction with Bronco and Doman. Indy will find this funny.

I'm banking on it.

[Flystripper]

If you believe the Heaps was lazy rumors then you must also believe the Nelson was divisive to the team and to the starting QB and won his starting job through charisma rumors. They both come from the same source.

A guy not going to the unofficial offseason team workouts and working out with his personal trainer does not automatically make a person lazy. Unless you charted his workouts personally you have no idea.

Heaps probably spent more time pre college working on his craft than anyone on the team. He is also getting glowing reports of his work ethic at Kansas. But I guess we should believe an isolated report of him being lazy at BYU provided with no context.

I have a feeling Heaps will do relatively well at Kansas and we will all have ample opportunity to increase our dissatisfaction with Bronco and Doman. Indy will find this funny.

[Hsaru]

Which is exactly why Heaps should have been working hard during the offseason. The guilty parties in 2011 are innumerable, but the list begins with Heaps.

If you believe the Heaps was lazy rumors then you must also believe the Nelson was divisive to the team and to the starting QB and won his starting job through charisma rumors. They both come from the same source.

A guy not going to the unofficial offseason team workouts and working out with his personal trainer does not automatically make a person lazy. Unless you charted his workouts personally you have no idea.

Heaps probably spent more time pre college working on his craft than anyone on the team. He is also getting glowing reports of his work ethic at Kansas. But I guess we should believe an isolated report of him being lazy at BYU provided with no context.

[pelagius]

You make it seem like giving Tulsa credit for giving up only 59 to Ok St, 47 to Oklahoma, 48 to Houston is a totally rational thing to do...

Nothing they did that year gave any reason to believe they were a solid defense.

Well, we would have to define solid; I am saying their defensive rank after controlling for SOS and the offensive capabilities of the teams they played was probably in the 50s (possibly a little better or worse than that). That's much better than Utep 2010. I woulld define Tulsa in 2011 as having an average defense relative to the entire cross-section of Div 1A and UTEP as having a very below average defense in the same cross-section (and once you estimate these models it becomes pretty clear that teams like Hawaii 2011 were similar in terms of quality and not Tulsa). I am systemetically taking into account all of those performances for both teams. In fact I am taking into account all the performances of every team in order to determine Tulsa's defensive rank (not cherry picking a few numbers).

[Indy Coug]

You make it seem like giving Tulsa credit for giving up only 59 to Ok St, 47 to Oklahoma, 48 to Houston is a totally rational thing to do...

Nothing they did that year gave any reason to believe they were a solid defense.

But the issue at hand isn't whether or not they were a "solid defense", just that they were significantly better than UTEP when you account for strength of schedule.

[Indy Coug]

Or we switched to the greenest OC in the country who was in way over his head installing a new offense that none of the player's on the offense had any history or reps in.

Which is exactly why Heaps should have been working hard during the offseason. The guilty parties in 2011 are innumerable, but the list begins with Heaps.