The Heaps of Goodbyes Thread

[Hsaru]

I don't get this.

Are you honestly saying that there has NEVER been a player with fewer stars who ended up being better than a player with more stars? Or that it never should happen?

It seems to me that this is what you are saying, and I have to disagree. While I like getting players with stars - because that tends to mean that a lot of people think they are going to be good - there will always be guys who outperform guys with more stars than them.

Now - should the coaches ask questions about what they are doing to evaluate and develop players? Sure.

But should they throw out everything they've ever done in evaluating and developing players? Of course not.

Sometimes those guys without any stars end up being pretty good. How many WR's on the team right now had more stars than Cody Hoffman? How many TE's on the team right now had more stars than a couple of walk-on TE's in Dennis Pita or Chad Lewis?

I'm judging Riley Nelson on from what I've seen, not stars. I have very little to go on for Munns and Lark besides their stars and what little I've seen in spring/fall practice. But they must have been huge busts if they can't and won't be able to compete with what I've seen from Riley Nelson.

[Eddie]

If he can't learn it the rest of this year and this offseason, I see no reason for a magical jump in 2013 in ability. We really screwed up somewhere along the line in either recruiting or player development if we have a 5 star and two 4 stars who will be upperclassmen who can't beat out Riley Nelson. Sad state of affairs our program is in.

I don't get this.

Are you honestly saying that there has NEVER been a player with fewer stars who ended up being better than a player with more stars? Or that it never should happen?

It seems to me that this is what you are saying, and I have to disagree. While I like getting players with stars - because that tends to mean that a lot of people think they are going to be good - there will always be guys who outperform guys with more stars than them.

Now - should the coaches ask questions about what they are doing to evaluate and develop players? Sure.

But should they throw out everything they've ever done in evaluating and developing players? Of course not.

Sometimes those guys without any stars end up being pretty good. How many WR's on the team right now had more stars than Cody Hoffman? How many TE's on the team right now had more stars than a couple of walk-on TE's in Dennis Pita or Chad Lewis?

[Hsaru]

So you're saying that another year for the team and Jake to learn Doman's system would not be beneficial to Jake before he takes the field? Another off-season and he should be at max output level, otherwise no future for him? Did I correctly restate your opinion here?

If he can't learn it the rest of this year and this offseason, I see no reason for a magical jump in 2013 in ability. We really screwed up somewhere along the line in either recruiting or player development if we have a 5 star and two 4 stars who will be upperclassmen who can't beat out Riley Nelson. Sad state of affairs our program is in.

[Commando]

I don't get the posters who say Jake would suck next year, but then believe he will somehow magically be good by 2013. If he can't improve sitting out half this year and another offseason to be better than Riley Nelson, than I don't see a future for him.

I stated what happened this year, combination of rookie OC who had never called a play in his life, trying to bring in a whole new offense that has never been run at BYU. Offensive execution sucks with either QB, but the QB that's biggest strength is broken plays excels against the dregs of the WAC and struggles against the only real team he plays in TCU... Riley gets to keep the job because we are playing the dregs of CFB...not exactly a resounding showing for Nelson.

So you're saying that another year for the team and Jake to learn Doman's system would not be beneficial to Jake before he takes the field? Another off-season and he should be at max output level, otherwise no future for him? Did I correctly restate your opinion here?

[Hsaru]

But according to your logic by not beating out Riley at any point in time ever it proves that Jake sucks and will never be good. So why do you want him next year? He can't beat out Riley now.

I stated what happened this year, combination of rookie OC who had never called a play in his life, trying to bring in a whole new offense that has never been run at BYU. Offensive execution sucks with either QB, but the QB that's biggest strength is broken plays excels against the dregs of the WAC and struggles against the only real team he plays in TCU... Riley gets to keep the job because we are playing the dregs of CFB...not exactly a resounding showing for Nelson.

[Blueintheface]

But according to your logic by not beating out Riley at any point in time ever it proves that Jake sucks and will never be good. So why do you want him next year? He can't beat out Riley now.

Just stop. Right now he's somewhere between denial and acceptance (I think this stage is called Don't Touch Me).

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I don't get the posters who say Jake would suck next year, but then believe he will somehow magically be good by 2013. If he can't improve sitting out half this year and another offseason to be better than Riley Nelson, than I don't see a future for him.

But according to your logic by not beating out Riley at any point in time ever it proves that Jake sucks and will never be good. So why do you want him next year? He can't beat out Riley now.

[Hsaru]

I don't get the posters who say Jake would suck next year, but then believe he will somehow magically be good by 2013. If he can't improve sitting out half this year and another offseason to be better than Riley Nelson, than I don't see a future for him.

[Jacob]

The sad reality is BYU likely loses 3 of the 4 games your mentioned with either qb next year.

Have a little faith! Utah is not good. Boise will lose Moore. ND has proven nothing. OK...so we still likely lose 3. You are probably right.

[Eddie]

Meanwhile we have to suffer through 2012 with losses to Utah, Georgia Tech, Boise St, and Notre Dame, but our QB will look like a goddamned hero against Idaho running over their linebackers!

Do you ever see anything in terms of a gray area? Does everything have to be so black or white? All or nothing?

I can't imagine Jake not having the opportunity to compete for the job next year. I do imagine that playing time this year has led to Nelson improving. Simply by seeing what they've both done in practice and games, the coaches would be lunatics if they were to determine who starts simply by what happens in practice. I don't know what or how they make the determination - I'm just saying that they would be crazy to base it on just practice.

I don't understand your belief that if Jake redshirts he'll never play meaningful minutes at BYU. What leads you to believe that he wouldn't beat out someone with less time in the system? If you are one who hates that the coaches seem to value some degree of experience - won't Jake be the one with the most experience once Nelson is gone?

And with the way that Jake played against the likes of Ole Miss, Texas, Utah, and even USU - what leads you to believe BYU is going to beat Utah, Georgia Tech, BSU, or Notre Dame next year if he is the QB? Maybe - but maybe not.

Sure - Nelson is limited in some of the throws he can make. But he also brings other strengths to the table. And I happen to think he has shown better arm strength this year compared to last year. I also think that some game experience can/will help with his ability to read defenses and make the right throw. Which will be a big deal in the future. That said - he really has to decide not to win or lose the game on every play and take ball security into account.

I get that you think Jake is a better option. That's your opinion. There is nothing to show that it is right or wrong. Let's be honest here - Jake hasn't been as great as we'd like him to be, and Nelson hasn't been as bad as folks thought he would be (at least throwing, he hasn't). But neither has made a great case for being the starter next year.

I think it might help you if you were to try to identify a thing or two that Nelson does well. That or it's time to up your blood pressure meds. Because I don't see this ending well for you if you continue to get this worked up about Nelson versus Heaps.

[Art Vandelay]

With us being independent maybe BYUtv could broadcast practices, then we would at least get to see how good he is.

A true, laugh out loud.

I changed my avatar for you and Jeff. Ocular wusses.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Yeah! Give me the QB who looks like a goddamned hero in practice!

With us being independent maybe BYUtv could broadcast practices, then we would at least get to see how good he is.

[Art Vandelay]

Meanwhile we have to suffer through 2012 with losses to Utah, Georgia Tech, Boise St, and Notre Dame, but our QB will look like a goddamned hero against Idaho running over their linebackers!

HeapsRU, I'm confused. Are you saying that Jake is a better in-game QB than Riley (highly debatable, and really the data does not seemingly support that hypothesis) or that Jake has the potential to be much better than RN (I think most would agree with this theory - Doman, Bronco, the majority of fans and maybe even Riley)? However, the fact remains in the limited sample of play we have seen from both Riley has played much better than Heaps. RN makes too many stupid plays, thinks his arm is better than it is, and will probably never play another down of FB once he is done at BYU. However, BYU loses to TCU by the same score they did to Utah if Jake was playing. He has little confidence in himself and even less from his teammates. Unless he goes to therapy over the summer, I don't see that changing much before next fall (see: Gilbert, Garrett).

FTR, I was always a team Jake guy. I saw him play half a dozen times in HS and still think he can regain the proverbial "it". But, earning the starting spot in practice (for the third time) will not likely garner him the respect he needs from his team next year. Knowing the fan and majority of the team favorite is lying in wait for his job is the worst possible situation for his already fragile pysche.

The sad reality is BYU likely loses 3 of the 4 games your mentioned with either qb next year.

[ERCougar]

Meanwhile we have to suffer through 2012 with losses to Utah, Georgia Tech, Boise St, and Notre Dame, but our QB will look like a goddamned hero against Idaho running over their linebackers!

Yeah! Give me the QB who looks like a goddamned hero in practice!

[Hsaru]

One of the more ridiculous things I've ever read.

This is likely the first time Jake is experience a little adversity. While not his ideal life plan this adversity will probably mature him and make him into a better QB.

So far Jake is a great practice QB which is the reason he beat out Riley. However Riley is better right now in games. The added maturity Jake can gain by working on his game in practice and doing a bit of watching and waiting can help him translate his awesomeness in practice to awesomeness on the field.

Meanwhile we have to suffer through 2012 with losses to Utah, Georgia Tech, Boise St, and Notre Dame, but our QB will look like a goddamned hero against Idaho running over their linebackers!