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  • 2021-2022 season

    I am not yet sold on Pope. The team this season out-performed expectations, but clearly the 6 seed was a huge reach by the committee (and likely heavily influenced by the previous season/team's success).

    My concerns started at the end of the 2019 - 2020 season with the loss in the WCC tournament. His stubbornness this season in sticking to his defensive and offensive plans and making in game adjustments too late (USC, Boise St., Gonzaga and UCLA) are frustrating. Adding to my concern is that players might start and then sit the remainder of a game. Plus "the best locker room in America" talk was a ruse. It's easy to say that when you have so many high character guys on the squad, but If you have to say it out loud as often as he did it's because you are trying to convince yourself and the team that it is true.

    You cannot build a program primarily through transfers. Harding is better than both Knell and Johnson. Knell is weak on the ball, unable to get in the lane, create his own shot and a mediocre defender. Hades, cougjunkie could probably take the ball from him at will (seriously). Spencer Johnson has hit his ceiling.

    George is full of potential but will continue to be inconsistent. When talented players struggle in game, they often can adjust and go back to the fundamentals—the things they learned in their formative basketball years to reset their game. George's formative basketball years were 4 or 5 years ago at best.

    Down the stretch with Harward's regression and Haarms simply being the player he is, he should've gone back to Lee instead of letting him languish on the bench.

    BYU just might have its own Larry K.
    Last edited by tooblue; 03-30-2021, 09:53 PM.

  • #2
    Debbie Downer.

    Edit: just seeing the news of all the players in the transfer portal.

    Lowell doesn't strike me as much of a loss. It's a bummer, but pre-injury, I felt he was out of his league.

    Lee doesn't surprise me too much. I actually give the dude props. He turned into more of a player than I could have ever imagined watching him his first season in Provo. With Haarms gone, we're gonna need some size (and I'm not sold on Baxter).

    I actually hope Wade comes back.

    But the dagger to me is Connor Harding. There are rumors that his knee is done and will not get better. I'm not sure I believe that. But I liked his style of play. He guarded whoever was in front of him. As a freshman, he had a real spring in his step that seems gone. I hope we can figure out a way to keep him.
    Last edited by Green Monstah; 03-30-2021, 11:05 PM.
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

    "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Green Monstah View Post
      Debbie Downer.

      Edit: just seeing the news of all the players in the transfer portal.

      Lowell doesn't strike me as much of a loss. It's a bummer, but pre-injury, I felt he was out of his league.

      Lee doesn't surprise me too much. I actually give the dude props. He turned into more of a player than I could have ever imagined watching him his first season in Provo. With Haarms gone, we're gonna need some size (and I'm not sold on Baxter).

      I actually hope Wade comes back.

      But the dagger to me is Connor Harding. There are rumors that his knee is done and will not get better. I'm not sure I believe that. But I liked his style of play. He guarded whoever was in front of him. As a freshman, he had a real spring in his step that seems gone. I hope we can figure out a way to keep him.
      The first round loss followed by a flood of transfers are a gut punch. Now I know how Ute fans feel at the end of a season. Right now this is what your returning experience roster looks like:

      Knell
      Johnson
      George
      Lohner
      Harward



      I agree that Lowell isn't much of a loss, and with Baxter's history he just can't be relied upon. I don't know why they couldn't find a few minutes for Wade? When he got on the floor with the scrubs he passed the eye test as being a step ahead of the others.

      Harding was a step slow early on and didn't look quite right physically. He seemed to regain that step as the season wore on. Losing him is hard to figure? Lee is a high character guy and the way he is leaving with his wife voicing her frustrations publicly indicates there is trouble in "the best locker room in America."
      Last edited by tooblue; 03-31-2021, 06:44 AM.

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      • #4
        lol. harding is not better than knell or johnson.
        I'm like LeBron James.
        -mpfunk

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        • #5
          Originally posted by tooblue View Post
          I am not yet sold on Pope. The team this season out-performed expectations, but clearly the 6 seed was a huge reach by the committee (and likely heavily influenced by the previous season/team's success).

          My concerns started at the end of the 2019 - 2020 season with the loss in the WCC tournament. His stubbornness this season in sticking to his defensive and offensive plans and making in game adjustments too late (USC, Boise St., Gonzaga and UCLA) are frustrating. Adding to my concern is that players might start and then sit the remainder of a game. Plus "the best locker room in America" talk was a ruse. It's easy to say that when you have so many high character guys on the squad, but If you have to say it out loud as often as he did it's because you are trying to convince yourself and the team that it is true.

          You cannot build a program primarily through transfers. Harding is better than both Knell and Johnson. Knell is weak on the ball, unable to get in the lane, create his own shot and a mediocre defender. Hades, cougjunkie could probably take the ball from him at will (seriously). Spencer Johnson has hit his ceiling.

          George is full of potential but will continue to be inconsistent. When talented players struggle in game, they often can adjust and go back to the fundamentals—the things they learned in their formative basketball years to reset their game. George's formative basketball years were 4 or 5 years ago at best.

          Down the stretch with Harward's regression and Haarms simply being the player he is, he should've gone back to Lee instead of letting him languish on the bench.

          BYU just might have its own Larry K.
          I don't really think any of these 3 were going to have big roles next year. I am skeptical Lowell plays anywhere next year and Lee and Harding would have been back ups IMO. I disagree with you on both Knell and Johnson- I think both will be better players than Harding going forward. Whether or not the new transfers will be upgrades has yet to be determined, but I think part of what Pope is doing is culling his roster for 22-23. With the Covid exemption this year all of this past season's juniors will be juniors again next year and thus eat up scholarships for 2 more years. Pope has 3 players returning from missions for the 22-23 season- all of whom are perimeter players. However, he still only has 13 scholarship available. He will have Johnson and Knell for two years with those incoming RMs and that gives them some advantage over Harding. Getting a PG of the future and then a couple of seniors who will move on to create the necessary space are likely high priorities.

          Certainly, actions like this put a cloud over things and time will tell if if is an upgrade and to what extent annual turnover hurts continuity and perhaps even recruiting but as your post started Pope has done really well on the metric measure that matters most- winning basketball games. The rest of what you say may or may not be true but at this point the metric that matters most is in his favor.

          I also am not convinced he can't use the transfer portal frequently and often. He will still need to do well with the recruiting base but in my book I think the portal gives him flexibility to fill in the holes that previous coaches at BYU did not have available. Seems like an enhanced JC route.
          Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
          -General George S. Patton

          I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
          -DOCTOR Wuap

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          • #6
            Originally posted by tooblue View Post

            The first round loss followed by a flood of transfers are a gut punch. Now I know how Ute fans feel at the end of a season. Right now this is what your returning experience roster looks like:

            Knell
            Johnson
            George
            Lohner
            Harward



            I agree that Lowell isn't much of a loss, and with Baxter's history he just can't be relied upon. I don't know why they couldn't find a few minutes for Wade? When he got on the floor with the scrubs he passed the eye test as being a step ahead of the others.

            Harding was a step slow early on and didn't look quite right physically. He seemed to regain that step as the season wore on. Losing him is hard to figure? Lee is a high character guy and the way he is leaving with his wife voicing her frustrations publicly indicates there is trouble in "the best locker room in America."
            I am convinced Barcello will return.

            Next year's roster imo:

            Barcello
            Knell
            George
            Lohner
            Harward
            Johnson
            PG of the Future-Transfer with a few years of eligibility
            Baxter
            Atiki
            Traore
            Ericson
            Stewart
            SR Transfer Big
            SR Transfer Perimeter player

            I really think the 3 transfers will be in his rotation and if any are go to players then he clearly made BYU better by this move. I am not expecting them to be go to players as I think the starters will be Barcello, Knell, George, Lohner and Harward (I think Harward is the most likely of this 5 to lose a starting role to a transfer) and then I expect all 3 transfers off the bench with Johnson and Baxter.

            The key to next year, IMO, is the player development of George and Lohner. I think the transfer recruiting is not as important as it was last year but if he does in fact land go to level guys then I come away even more impressed with him than I already am.
            Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
            -General George S. Patton

            I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
            -DOCTOR Wuap

            Comment


            • #7
              About the transfer portal...this is the new normal. Every major program has multiple players in the portal. Recruiting the portal is what coaches do these days.


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              Dyslexics are teople poo...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                About the transfer portal...this is the new normal. Every major program has multiple players in the portal. Recruiting the portal is what coaches do these days.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                I heard Cronin say on the post-game radio interview last night that there are 1,000 players in the portal right now. With around 350 D-1 basketball programs, that's close to 3 transfers per team, on average. It's likely that a good percentage of those guys won't find a new home.

                Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

                "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
                - Goatnapper'96

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post

                  I don't really think any of these 3 were going to have big roles next year. I am skeptical Lowell plays anywhere next year and Lee and Harding would have been back ups IMO. I disagree with you on both Knell and Johnson- I think both will be better players than Harding going forward. Whether or not the new transfers will be upgrades has yet to be determined, but I think part of what Pope is doing is culling his roster for 22-23. With the Covid exemption this year all of this past season's juniors will be juniors again next year and thus eat up scholarships for 2 more years. Pope has 3 players returning from missions for the 22-23 season- all of whom are perimeter players. However, he still only has 13 scholarship available. He will have Johnson and Knell for two years with those incoming RMs and that gives them some advantage over Harding. Getting a PG of the future and then a couple of seniors who will move on to create the necessary space are likely high priorities.

                  Certainly, actions like this put a cloud over things and time will tell if if is an upgrade and to what extent annual turnover hurts continuity and perhaps even recruiting but as your post started Pope has done really well on the metric measure that matters most- winning basketball games. The rest of what you say may or may not be true but at this point the metric that matters most is in his favor.

                  I also am not convinced he can't use the transfer portal frequently and often. He will still need to do well with the recruiting base but in my book I think the portal gives him flexibility to fill in the holes that previous coaches at BYU did not have available. Seems like an enhanced JC route.
                  If Knell is your starting wing you are in trouble. He is weak on the ball, can't drive or create his own shot and is a mediocre defender; it appears he has to be Ward ball open to take and make threes.

                  The potential with George is there, but him starting and then spending the rest of a game on the bench is more the norm than the exception.

                  The transfer portal is the new norm, but it is also fools gold. What it means is you have less time to develop chemistry and properly install a system. When that system fails as it did against better competition this season, you are unable to make adjustments on the fly late in games when you need to pull even with teams and close out.

                  Pope has done well with other coaches players and his transfers. Let's hope this type of offseason doesn't become the norm and we are looking at Larry K 2.0
                  Last edited by tooblue; 03-31-2021, 08:57 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by smokymountainrain View Post
                    lol. harding is not better than knell or johnson.
                    How effective were Knell, Johnson and George in maintaining a 12 point lead at half against Gonzaga while Harding sat on the bench? Was it Knell Pope went to for deny the ball defence against UCLA in the first round?

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                    • #11
                      When Gonzaga went from Cinderella to powerhouse it was off the back of transfers. UCLA is in the final 4 due to Johnny Juzang (a transfer). Finding success with transfers is a sign that your coach is good and is using all the resources available to him. In today’s college basketball, transfer recruiting is more important than JC recruiting and while not as important as underclassmen recruiting, it is not to be looked down on.

                      Balancing missions has always necessitated BYU recruiting JC transfers and now that the D1 transfer portal has emerged as a viable option it is one more tool to balance the roster.

                      I understand the worry and Pope may eventually flop, but so far so good and the future is bright.


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                      Dyslexics are teople poo...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tooblue View Post

                        How effective were Knell, Johnson and George in maintaining a 12 point lead at half against Gonzaga while Harding sat on the bench? Was it Knell Pope went to for deny the ball defence against UCLA in the first round?
                        This is a really strange argument.

                        But I agree with you about hoping there is not consistently 3 players transferring away after every year. Nobody transferred out after last year and this year he had 3. Not sure what the trend is yet but it certainly gives you leverage to go after the BLA stuff. But once again the proof is not in who did or didn't play when two final four teams beat BYU, it is whether or not BYU wins games. In totality Pope has done well in that arena with Connor Harding and Kolby Lee both on and off the court.

                        FTR I think there will be at least one transfer after next year- in my view both Ericson and Stewart are similar types of players so I think Pope will only keep one after next year.
                        Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
                        -General George S. Patton

                        I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
                        -DOCTOR Wuap

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tooblue View Post
                          I am not yet sold on Pope. The team this season out-performed expectations, but clearly the 6 seed was a huge reach by the committee (and likely heavily influenced by the previous season/team's success).

                          ...

                          BYU just might have its own Larry K.
                          I want to challenge your assertion "clearly the 6 seed was a huge reach by the committee". BYU lost 7 games this year:
                          • 3x vs. Gonzaga - currently in the Final Four and looking like one of the most complete and best college basketball teams in modern memory. BYU has played them about as well as any other team in the country this season.
                          • UCLA - also currently in the Final Four having beat Michigan State at the same seed, the Abilene Christian "gimme", Alabama at #2, and Michigan at #1. UCLA was clearly underseeded in the tourney.
                          • USC - Made it to the Elite 8 as a 6 seed, losing to Gonzaga
                          • Pepperdine on the road - Malibu is BYU's Achilles heel and has been since joining the WCC, long before this season and long before Pope
                          • Boise State at home - Boise was not horrible but BYU should not have lost this game

                          So BYU had a grand total of 2 losses this year to teams that weren't Final Four or Elite 8 teams. I don't think it's clear at all that a 6 seed was a huge reach by the committee.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                            When Gonzaga went from Cinderella to powerhouse it was off the back of transfers. UCLA is in the final 4 due to Johnny Juzang (a transfer). Finding success with transfers is a sign that your coach is good and is using all the resources available to him. In today’s college basketball, transfer recruiting is more important than JC recruiting and while not as important as underclassmen recruiting, it is not to be looked down on.

                            Balancing missions has always necessitated BYU recruiting JC transfers and now that the D1 transfer portal has emerged as a viable option it is one more tool to balance the roster.

                            I understand the worry and Pope may eventually flop, but so far so good and the future is bright.


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                            I don't believe he will be a flop, but the concern is the belief that BYU's ceiling is Gonzaga or even San Diego State. The reality, in part due to missions, is BYU's ceiling is Loyola Chicago or Davidson et al. I don't have a problem with mining the transfer portal. As you aptly pointed out it is the norm. But losing four character guys, two of which who were significant contributors over the past two years is alarming.
                            Last edited by tooblue; 03-31-2021, 10:02 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post

                              This is a really strange argument.

                              But I agree with you about hoping there is not consistently 3 players transferring away after every year. Nobody transferred out after last year and this year he had 3. Not sure what the trend is yet but it certainly gives you leverage to go after the BLA stuff. But once again the proof is not in who did or didn't play when two final four teams beat BYU, it is whether or not BYU wins games. In totality Pope has done well in that arena with Connor Harding and Kolby Lee both on and off the court.

                              FTR I think there will be at least one transfer after next year- in my view both Ericson and Stewart are similar types of players so I think Pope will only keep one after next year.
                              It is demonstrative of the almost petty or petulant nature of his in-game coaching style. Certainly, petty or petulant are not the correct tems, but too often when a player doesn't perform and can't adjust they go to the bench and stay there. That is NBA behaviour and this isn't the NBA.

                              Had he gone to Harding at all in the Gonzaga game, they may have been able to preserve that lead and close out better than they did. Knell hit a few shots, Few adjusted and they locked him down. Knell is a turnover waiting to happen and a defensive liability against more athletic wings. In the first round he went to Harding too late against UCLA. BYU did not have enough time to close the gap.

                              He has done well in totality against lessor or equal competition.
                              Last edited by tooblue; 03-31-2021, 09:48 AM.

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