The Official Drought Thread

[chrisrenrut]

There were a lot of xeriscaping resources when we lived in central Oregon. With our acre lot, we landscaped about a third of it. We had a few rhododendrons and 'showy' plants, but most of it was fescues and native bushes with drip irrigation. The remainder of it was unirrigated wild grasses and bushes. That portion of our lot just subsisted year to year.

Anyways it's December 23rd on Vancouver Island and my grass is still green. I have never lived in a place that gets so much precipitation, and we're on the side of the island that gets relatively less rain.The local ski hill opened about a week late because it hadn't snowed yet, but once it dipped into the high 30's down here it dumped like crazy up there. I tell myself that the cold in my bones mornings are worth not having to worry if the snow pack will be enough to stave off fires in the summer.

The cold on Vancouver Island is different. You feel it in your bones. 45 degrees there (Fahrenheit) felts like 25 degrees back in Utah.

[Northwestcoug]

There were a lot of xeriscaping resources when we lived in central Oregon. With our acre lot, we landscaped about a third of it. We had a few rhododendrons and 'showy' plants, but most of it was fescues and native bushes with drip irrigation. The remainder of it was unirrigated wild grasses and bushes. That portion of our lot just subsisted year to year.

Anyways it's December 23rd on Vancouver Island and my grass is still green. I have never lived in a place that gets so much precipitation, and we're on the side of the island that gets relatively less rain.The local ski hill opened about a week late because it hadn't snowed yet, but once it dipped into the high 30's down here it dumped like crazy up there. I tell myself that the cold in my bones mornings are worth not having to worry if the snow pack will be enough to stave off fires in the summer.

[Pelado]

We've had rain the last couple of days. No drought here!

[USUC]

Does the state still do a credit for removing lawns? I got paid by the square foot of sod removed.

It requires you to go to a class about what to do. We had already got most of our stuff done by the time, but probably would have used a bunch of the suggestions if we hadn’t. It was a pretty good class.


We took out at the Jordan water conservatory district place. It is worth looking into.

This is a great idea. Thank you.

[beefytee]

Does the state still do a credit for removing lawns? I got paid by the square foot of sod removed.

It requires you to go to a class about what to do. We had already got most of our stuff done by the time, but probably would have used a bunch of the suggestions if we hadn’t. It was a pretty good class.


We took out at the Jordan water conservatory district place. It is worth looking into.

[USUC]

My childhood home (in the family trust and will... eventually be mine), has a large front and back lawn and a decent sized side lawn. We've always had secondary water to handle it, but the city has now metered it and it will soon be cost prohibitive to keep that much lawn. So I have been researching how to landscape it in a way that isn't just rock that soaks up and gives more heat. In researching more water efficient plants for Utah I have stumbled into the most depressing discussions on the future of Utah and the megadrought that had lasted for the past 25 years and I've sunken deep into the doom and gloom climate despair that I've seen overtake and make reasonable people insufferable. I'm sure it's at a fever now pitch given or current December, but there doesn't seem to be any expert that isn't predicting the megadrought is the new norm. Maybe I should put of researching landscaping more until the spring.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ok yes, very clumsy way of me trying to state the current appropriation of Utah rights no longer makes sense given the massive population growth and change is agriculture land use that has occurred since. Utah ag has shifted to alfalfa because it requires minimal labor and the water is cheap. If there is clear data that alfalfa production is a great economic boon to utah i could certainly be convinced to chsnge my mind. But when we need record snowfall years to keep the great salt lake from disappearing, current practice is clearly not sustainable. With 80% of Utah water going to farming and 50% (?) going to alfalfa that seems extremely misallocated. Again if we had surpluses and the lake was on a healthy long term trajectory I wouldn't GAF.

You stated above that shifting ag away from thirsty crops like almonds in the central Valley is a needed strategy which I agree with. Does this not extend to alfalfa for us, being alfalfa is the almonds of the Utah water rights issues? What am I missing?

Much of the alfalfa in Utah is grown in places like Millard County and Sanpete County. You can't economically move that water to the Wasatch Front anyway. So who cares if they grow alfalfa? And that water does not drain to the GSL.

As for both alfalfa and almonds, if the farmer owns the water rights, they can grow whatever they want. My comment about almonds in the Central Valley is that this is fundamentally a solvable problem in the long run. Maybe someday we decide that we are going to be more social/communist and we nationalize water and confiscate it from the current owners as some of you seem to be implying. Personally, I think market forces will organically solve the problem over time. Much of the water used to drive land development on the wasatch front occurs due to farmers selling their water rights (and often their land) to developers or to cities. When Geneva Steel shut down, they had massive water rights. Central Utah Water Conservancy District bought them all and then they dole them out to cities as needed.

Here's another thought: If you tell Central Valley farmers they can't grow almonds because they require too much water. They will simply shift to other crops and use the water they own anyway. Ditto for alfalfa. You can be as upset as you want about selling alfalfa to china, but we have massive infrastructure in place to support this industry (canal companies, irrigation systems, laser-leveled farms, production and distribution, etc). It supports a big part of our local economy and losing it would have significant consequences.

As for the Great Salt Lake, things aren't nearly as dire as some would have you believe.

[Donuthole]

Also, tons of farmers grow alfalfa solely because they want to grow the cheapest cheap crop that will allow them to pay greenbelt taxes on the land. Maybe let’s incentivize not growing water thirsty crops just to save on taxes.

[BigFatMeanie]

Really weird discussion. Why is producing and selling stuff to the Chinese such a bad thing? Walk me through the logic here. It is a big business in the state and it helps reduce our trade imbalance.

EDIT: Never mind. Omaha responded better than I did.

[Omaha 680]

A fraction of the current market value? How does this work? We don't currently have a water market, so who is paying a higher rate? We have prior appropriation water right and farmers own a lot of water shares.

For the record, Utah law prohibits the state water purveyors from charging more for water than the actual cost of delivering it to the end user. So everyone is getting a bargain.

Ok yes, very clumsy way of me trying to state the current appropriation of Utah rights no longer makes sense given the massive population growth and change is agriculture land use that has occurred since. Utah ag has shifted to alfalfa because it requires minimal labor and the water is cheap. If there is clear data that alfalfa production is a great economic boon to utah i could certainly be convinced to chsnge my mind. But when we need record snowfall years to keep the great salt lake from disappearing, current practice is clearly not sustainable. With 80% of Utah water going to farming and 50% (?) going to alfalfa that seems extremely misallocated. Again if we had surpluses and the lake was on a healthy long term trajectory I wouldn't GAF.

You stated above that shifting ag away from thirsty crops like almonds in the central Valley is a needed strategy which I agree with. Does this not extend to alfalfa for us, being alfalfa is the almonds of the Utah water rights issues? What am I missing?

[All-American]

Just in case anybody thinks smart practical solutions like intelligent use policies sounds boring and wants to overengineer the crap out of this, check out this one:

https://youtu.be/iN27GcrkXVo?si=RnFyEmKGtCvrWOyY

[Jeff Lebowski]

Trade imbalance is a nonsequitur in most conversations and in particular this one. Assuming free/fair trade, deficits and surpluses arise naturally, with the more developed nations typically carrying the deficits. Just like deficits arent automatically bad, reducing deficits isn't automatically good.

But in cases of extremely scarce resources or national security concerns, im fine with the state stepping in and creating barriers to redirect where economic forces woild push trade naturally. Water is one of the most precious resources we have in the American west. Farmers using it for alfalfa production in utah are receiving the water (a public resource) at a fraction of the current market value. I think the consternation in the above conversation is not so much about trade with the Chinese but that the current water use in Utah is an extreme misallalocation of public resources.

A fraction of the current market value? How does this work? We don't currently have a water market, so who is paying a higher rate? We have prior appropriation water right and farmers own a lot of water shares.

For the record, Utah law prohibits the state water purveyors from charging more for water than the actual cost of delivering it to the end user. So everyone is getting a bargain.

[falafel]

What is alfalfa even good for? Feeding livestock? Anything else?

sucking up water

[Omaha 680]

Really weird discussion. Why is producing and selling stuff to the Chinese such a bad thing? Walk me through the logic here. It is a big business in the state and it helps reduce our trade imbalance.

Trade imbalance is a nonsequitur in most conversations and in particular this one. Assuming free/fair trade, deficits and surpluses arise naturally, with the more developed nations typically carrying the deficits. Just like deficits arent automatically bad, reducing deficits isn't automatically good.

But in cases of extremely scarce resources or national security concerns, im fine with the state stepping in and creating barriers to redirect where economic forces woild push trade naturally. Water is one of the most precious resources we have in the American west. Farmers using it for alfalfa production in utah are receiving the water (a public resource) at a fraction of the current market value. I think the consternation in the above conversation is not so much about trade with the Chinese but that the current water use in Utah is an extreme misallalocation of public resources.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Is stopping water use in isolated areas helpful to make water available in urban areas? Are the aquifers that connected that they would make a big difference far away?

Generally, no.