Biden/Harris: A Presidency for All Americans

[Bo Diddley]

Here is a good defense of Biden:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog...ancy-magazines

And this too:


https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/...en-falling-fa1

I like the way Sullivan puts this:

They are acting now as if we are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, rather than finally ending the dumbest, longest war this country has ever fought.

[Uncle Ted]

This is not an issue of whether or not to get out of Afghanistan but how to get out of Afghanistan... Biden did it all wrong and is a wimp:

Joe Biden groveling as Taliban calls the shots: Goodwin

Neville Chamberlain can rest easy. He is no longer the most shameful appeaser in modern history.

Joe Biden is the new champion of cowards.

Biden didn’t just blink in the face of terror. He is groveling before the Taliban, acknowledging their victory and laying the groundwork for their legitimacy as the rulers of Afghanistan.

Who could imagine any American president allowing murderous thugs to set the terms of our military’s surrender? But that’s what has been happening and it crystalized Tuesday.

The Taliban declared that no more Afghans should go to the Kabul airport, that those already there should leave and then they shut the main airport road. For all practical purposes, those words and actions ended the mercy mission of getting our allies out.

Even more unforgivable, by agreeing to the Taliban’s demand that he stick to his own initial deadline of Aug. 31 for the withdrawal of all troops, Biden shows he is willing to strand thousands of Americans behind enemy lines.

Exactly how many Americans will be left behind is unknown, but most estimates put it in the thousands. They are now hostages to Biden’s fear and failure.

Their fate is uncertain, but the fate of the tens of thousands of abandoned Afghans who helped us and whom we promised to rescue is almost certain death.

This is extraordinarily callous and will ricochet around the world as evidence that America is no longer the home of the brave.
[...]

https://nypost.com/2021/08/24/joe-bi...shots-goodwin/

The Taliban taking a joyrides in their new Black Hawk helicopters that Joe gave them... Thanks Joe!

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[Bo Diddley]

The Taliban taking a joyrides in their new Black Hawk helicopters that Joe gave them... Thanks Joe!

They better be careful! Those things are not toys. Experienced pilots with years of training still crash these things on a regular basis. Looks like they've already mastered two dimensional flying though.

[old_gregg]

They better be careful! Those things are not toys. Experienced pilots with years of training still crash these things on a regular basis. Looks like they've already mastered two dimensional flying though.

imagine the taliban trying to maintain a fleet of blackhawks

[Bo Diddley]

The Taliban has already reenacted the raising of the Flag at Iwo Jima. I think they might try to reenact Blackhawk Down next.

[fusnik]

Here’s my hot take, a year from now, hell 6 months from now this will be a huge bonus for Biden.

It’s what Americans have wanted for years, it’s been a bipartisan mess for 20. The more we hear from the Nikki Haley’s and Pompeo’s about how they wouldn’t have negotiated with the Taliban in spite of their negotiations with the Taliban the more the public sentiment will turn in Joe’s favor.

I read a bunch and listened to a bunch of experts about this, seemed they did about as good as they could considering what was in front of them.

[Goatnapper'96]

imagine the taliban trying to maintain a fleet of blackhawks

When I went to the Armor Officer Basic Course in July-October 1996 we had a couple of foreign officers attending. Obviously this type of political decisions makes great theater. One of the foreign officers in my group was an Eritrean Officer. Just a kid who went into the bush as an illiterate teenager from some desert tribe fighting the Ethiopians. 25 years later the Ethiopians decided it was no longer worth it and he comes out as the commanding officer of the Eritrean Armor corps- which had no armor because the Eritreans decided to melt down all the tanks the Ethiopians left when they gave up to rebuild their railroad- apparently the Ethiopian railroad in what became the country of Eritrea was the envy of the undeveloped world before war broke out there in the early 70's. So here he is in a homemade uniform and shoes from Walmart as the Eritrean Armor Commander at the US Army Armor Officer Basic Course. He spoke no english, was illiterate in his native toungue as well as english and struggling to keep up with a bunch of guys likely 15-20 years younger than him. Part of our training was an introduction to the simulations of the M1 tank. We would go through maneuvers as well as gunnery simulations. Every time that dude was involved in a gunnery simulation the NCOIC would stop everybody else's simulation so we could crowd around his simulator and listen to him give fire commands. He would mumble shit in his native language and the gunner, an American 2nd LT, would get frustrated not understanding a word the guy was trying to say. Finally the Eritrean would just explode and scream "shoooooot that dumb motherfuckersonofabitch!" I learned that no matter the culture, ethnicity, religion, sexual persuasion, gender identification or language there was one universal method of communication all soldiers understood. Huah!

[Bo Diddley]

[Goatnapper'96]

Here’s my hot take, a year from now, hell 6 months from now this will be a huge bonus for Biden.

It’s what Americans have wanted for years, it’s been a bipartisan mess for 20. The more we hear from the Nikki Haley’s and Pompeo’s about how they wouldn’t have negotiated with the Taliban in spite of their negotiations with the Taliban the more the public sentiment will turn in Joe’s favor.

I read a bunch and listened to a bunch of experts about this, seemed they did about as good as they could considering what was in front of them.

I really think many folks distinguish between getting out and how ineptly he got out. It will be hard to shake the pull out with the sound bites he provided.

[fusnik]

I really think many folks distinguish between getting out and how ineptly he got out. It will be hard to shake the pull out with the sound bites he provided.

What 60k people have been evacced?

The images we saw the first week were awful but what did the alternative look like?

Kinzinger was blasting not using one of the airports but I read that that airport was 45 mins through an incredibly dangerous route that would have bottle necked people.

They had to navigate not giving the Taliban a win while ceding the country to the Taliban. The Afghani government obviously was corrupt an another 6-9 months there wasn’t going to change anything. Biden avoided what Obama couldn’t, 6-12 month extensions that turned into perpetual deployments.

It reminds me of a kid hesitant to rip a bandaid off and after having the bandaid removed they complain it hurts but realize that the bandaid needed to go.

[Goatnapper'96]

What 60k people have been evacced?

The images we saw the first week were awful but what did the alternative look like?

Kinzinger was blasting not using one of the airports but I read that that airport was 45 mins through an incredibly dangerous route that would have bottle necked people.

They had to navigate not giving the Taliban a win while ceding the country to the Taliban. The Afghani government obviously was corrupt an another 6-9 months there wasn’t going to change anything. Biden avoided what Obama couldn’t, 6-12 month extensions that turned into perpetual deployments.

It reminds me of a kid hesitant to rip a bandaid off and after having the bandaid removed they complain it hurts but realize that the bandaid needed to go.

You are a smart guy but I think you are really tribal about this. Every time somebody criticizes the pull out you want to bring it back to justifying ending the war. The alternatives where to get folks, US & Allied civilians as well as friendly Afghans, out while the US military was still in firm control of the country. That is not the same as advocating for a permanent military presence there- that is basically saying don't be a moron and remove your military capacity until after you have removed most of your civilian folks. The country could be turned over the Taliban then.

It didn't happen because the Administration made an enormous mistake in projecting how long it would take the Taliban to take the country. But they didn't have to wait until that window to move the majority of folks out that they are scrambling to get out now. So really they made two huge mistakes-removing the military before the civilian infrastructure and how long it would take Taliban to take control.

It is not unreasonable for voters to expect better decision making from the POTUS.

[fusnik]

You are a smart guy but I think you are really tribal about this. Every time somebody criticizes the pull out you want to bring it back to justifying ending the war. The alternatives where to get folks, US & Allied civilians as well as friendly Afghans, out while the US military was still in firm control of the country. That is not the same as advocating for a permanent military presence there- that is basically saying don't be a moron and remove your military capacity until after you have removed most of your civilian folks. The country could be turned over the Taliban then.

It didn't happen because the Administration made an enormous mistake in projecting how long it would take the Taliban to take the country. But they didn't have to wait until that window to move the majority of folks out that they are scrambling to get out now. So really they made two huge mistakes-removing the military before the civilian infrastructure and how long it would take Taliban to take control.

It is not unreasonable for voters to expect better decision making from the POTUS.

I think I read a NYT article in May that the intelligence was predicting the Taliban would take over in weeks not months. I don’t think this is surprising to anyone, except the tribalists and the media. There was a deadline, he exceeded the deadline but this wasn’t going to last in perpetuity, it needed to end.

Where was your criticism when Trump was handing the country over to the Taliban? Where was the media’s outrage when Trump, after he lost yanked a bunch of troops? Again this was going to be messy regardless of who was in charge.

Again this isn’t all on Trump, we have 20 years of bad policy that can be shared by both parties, but the last 6 months were ushered in by the Orange God King with nary a dissenting voice.

I could actually see the utility of having a base there and troops. I could be persuaded that we always need to have a physical presence in that country. It’s not what Americans want right now. Obama, Trump and Biden have all said they would pull the troops, Biden is the only one with the balls to actually do it.

[Moliere]

They better be careful! Those things are not toys. Experienced pilots with years of training still crash these things on a regular basis. Looks like they've already mastered two dimensional flying though.

[Goatnapper'96]

I think I read a NYT article in May that the intelligence was predicting the Taliban would take over in weeks not months. I don’t think this is surprising to anyone, except the tribalists and the media. There was a deadline, he exceeded the deadline but this wasn’t going to last in perpetuity, it needed to end.

Where was your criticism when Trump was handing the country over to the Taliban? Where was the media’s outrage when Trump, after he lost yanked a bunch of troops? Again this was going to be messy regardless of who was in charge.

Again this isn’t all on Trump, we have 20 years of bad policy that can be shared by both parties, but the last 6 months were ushered in by the Orange God King with nary a dissenting voice.

I could actually see the utility of having a base there and troops. I could be persuaded that we always need to have a physical presence in that country. It’s not what Americans want right now. Obama, Trump and Biden have all said they would pull the troops, Biden is the only one with the balls to actually do it.

Keep up Fussie, I know you are smart enough.

Giving up Afghanistan to the Taliban is not the issue. Take a breath and re-read that. It matters not who was the CIC when that was happening and happened.

Did I mention that giving up the country is not the issue. Because eventually I want to address the issue, for the last time I hope, and I want you to be very aware that getting out of Afghanistan was not the issue. Perhaps I haven't mentioned it often enough but the issue is not whether or not to remove US military power from Afghanistan.

The point is that it was possible and strategically smart to not remove your military capacity to keep the Taliban at bay until after you have removed as many of the civilians that you want to remove. This is not rocket science. You could systematically pull back your perimeter from the entire country to Kabul as you are evacuating civilians you want evacuated. Your perimeter lets the Taliban take the parts of the country that you no longer care about because you have evacuated, either back to Kabul or out of country entirely, the folks you wanted out from those areas. It really would not have been very difficult for the Biden Administration to do it that way. Obviously when you are at the point that you have collapsed your perimeter to just around the airport it had the potential to get messy but it was possible to have the numbers of folks left to evacuate at that point to be significantly less than what is needed now. I really don't understand why you are either arguing this point or making some tribal effort to take it back to getting out of Afghanistan. This pull out was executed miserably and given the raw firepower capabilities between the US and the Taliban it did not have to be this way.

[Moliere]

You are a smart guy but I think you are really tribal about this. Every time somebody criticizes the pull out you want to bring it back to justifying ending the war. The alternatives where to get folks, US & Allied civilians as well as friendly Afghans, out while the US military was still in firm control of the country. That is not the same as advocating for a permanent military presence there- that is basically saying don't be a moron and remove your military capacity until after you have removed most of your civilian folks. The country could be turned over the Taliban then.

It didn't happen because the Administration made an enormous mistake in projecting how long it would take the Taliban to take the country. But they didn't have to wait until that window to move the majority of folks out that they are scrambling to get out now. So really they made two huge mistakes-removing the military before the civilian infrastructure and how long it would take Taliban to take control.

It is not unreasonable for voters to expect better decision making from the POTUS.

Yep. Biden is getting widely praised for pulling us out. He’s also getting widely criticized for the lack of foresight and planning to get us and our allies out. That criticism is coming from our Allies, the English, French, and other NATO allies. There’s no other way to spin this than it was a disaster in how it was planned and executed. It always was going to be difficult, but Biden is making it horrendously difficult. There’s already no way we get every American out by 9/11, which was a date Biden set for himself to evacuate, let alone the people we promised we’d also evacuate.

Seriously, does anyone here actually think this is going as good as it could have gone? I mean, other than Jennifer Rubin.