Soccer Mom's thread grabbed my attention.

[JohnnyLingo]

For instance, the honor code and it's enforcement at BYU could only be done with the mantra of one truth behind it.

Odd, somehow other universities manage to have honor codes without such a mantra behind them.

[scottie]

Well, if you could get past the very question that led to the genesis of the restored church ("which church is true?"), maybe you might be onto something.

I'm sure Non Sequitur never considered that.

[byu71]

What a fascinating thread. When I left the Church behind, I spent a lot of time trying to replace the sense of community I had found within the Church. Joined the Elks and the Eagles. Joined the Men's association at the local course. Started hanging out at bars. And on and on.

We grow up in the Church and focus on the religion. But it's not the religion that keeps us coming back. It's the community. The Church has done a wonderful job of institutionalizing that sense of community, which is why so many people go through the motions of the religion. It's the price of keeping a seat at the table.

My particular problem with the Church was that I could never get past the dogmatic assertion that the Church was "the only true Church". That God had earmarked it as His Church. That other Churches were well intentioned, though ultimately misguided.

As I read this thread, I wonder if there will ever be a shift in this dogmatism within the Church. If we will become more like the various non-denominational Churches that are all the rage now -- communities of worshipers supporting each other but making no special claims to exclusivity of truth and authority. Is such a shift within the Church even remotely possible?

I doubt you will ever see that happen. Those who rise to the top are either "true" believers or love the authority. Either way, it doesn't promote change. Also, without the one true church belief, many of the rules that are followed would have to be loosened up. For instance, the honor code and it's enforcement at BYU could only be done with the mantra of one truth behind it.

[JohnnyLingo]

No sarcasm intended: Is there ever a reason someone should stop coming to church, aside from the felonious reasons?

No?

Forever. They can't take a half hour a week out of their busy schedule. They are full of themselves besides. What makes them think the guy even wants to see them.

You'd be surprised as how busy missionaries can be. There were times when I literally could not fit another appointment into the day. When you're at that point, you have to stop visiting people who aren't moving.

And if this guy doesn't want them visiting, then everyone wins!

They should look within. The guy isn't progressing because of something they are doing wrong. I would have loved to have been there and pulled that one on them.

Ouch. I hope you're just trying to make a point here. It's hard to tell with you, sometimes.

By the way, they are young men sacrificing and I respect them for that. Hopefully they are also learning.

Hopefully.

[Indy Coug]

What a fascinating thread. When I left the Church behind, I spent a lot of time trying to replace the sense of community I had found within the Church. Joined the Elks and the Eagles. Joined the Men's association at the local course. Started hanging out at bars. And on and on.

We grow up in the Church and focus on the religion. But it's not the religion that keeps us coming back. It's the community. The Church has done a wonderful job of institutionalizing that sense of community, which is why so many people go through the motions of the religion. It's the price of keeping a seat at the table.

My particular problem with the Church was that I could never get past the dogmatic assertion that the Church was "the only true Church". That God had earmarked it as His Church. That other Churches were well intentioned, though ultimately misguided.

As I read this thread, I wonder if there will ever be a shift in this dogmatism within the Church. If we will become more like the various non-denominational Churches that are all the rage now -- communities of worshipers supporting each other but making no special claims to exclusivity of truth and authority. Is such a shift within the Church even remotely possible?

Well, if you could get past the very question that led to the genesis of the restored church ("which church is true?") and the answer Joseph Smith received, maybe you might be onto something.

Of course, if you think Joseph Smith fabricated the entire event....

The sense of community that comes from being in the church is not much of a draw for me (my wife feels differently).

[Non Sequitur]

What a fascinating thread. When I left the Church behind, I spent a lot of time trying to replace the sense of community I had found within the Church. Joined the Elks and the Eagles. Joined the Men's association at the local course. Started hanging out at bars. And on and on.

We grow up in the Church and focus on the religion. But it's not the religion that keeps us coming back. It's the community. The Church has done a wonderful job of institutionalizing that sense of community, which is why so many people go through the motions of the religion. It's the price of keeping a seat at the table.

My particular problem with the Church was that I could never get past the dogmatic assertion that the Church was "the only true Church". That God had earmarked it as His Church. That other Churches were well intentioned, though ultimately misguided.

As I read this thread, I wonder if there will ever be a shift in this dogmatism within the Church. If we will become more like the various non-denominational Churches that are all the rage now -- communities of worshipers supporting each other but making no special claims to exclusivity of truth and authority. Is such a shift within the Church even remotely possible?

[il Padrino Ute]

No sarcasm intended: Is there ever a reason someone should stop coming to church, aside from the felonious reasons?

Perhaps JL is saying that there is no reason for others that one particular individual should stop coming to church.

[byu71]

From the missionary's standpoint, he's right. They can't spend forever with people who aren't "progressing," however you measure that. But you are exactly right that there's no reason the man should stop coming to church.

Forever. They can't take a half hour a week out of their busy schedule. They are full of themselves besides. What makes them think the guy even wants to see them.

They should look within. The guy isn't progressing because of something they are doing wrong. I would have loved to have been there and pulled that one on them.

By the way, they are young men sacrificing and I respect them for that. Hopefully they are also learning.

[wuapinmon]

From the missionary's standpoint, he's right. They can't spend forever with people who aren't "progressing," however you measure that. But you are exactly right that there's no reason the man should stop coming to church.

No sarcasm intended: Is there ever a reason someone should stop coming to church, aside from the felonious reasons?

[JohnnyLingo]

The Elder came back and said something along the lines of "This guy isn't progressing, he either needs to commit to move forward or we'll have to drop him." I basically told them to go ahead and drop him then. He was gaining value from coming to church; the rest of us were gaining value from him coming to church. I don't see how anyone benefits from basically telling him "you are 100% with us, or we want no part of you."

From the missionary's standpoint, he's right. They can't spend forever with people who aren't "progressing," however you measure that. But you are exactly right that there's no reason the man should stop coming to church.

[byu71]

Good post. It reminds me of a guy who used to be in our ward. His wife was a member, he was not, but he was fantastic. He came to church every week (skipped SS and Priesthood, but that isn't uncommon), came to all the ward activities, served on the ward activities committee, and even paid tithing on his income, which is, in my mind, incredible. I will say that all the members of the ward were great. They accepted him completely as he was, and there were no problems.

The missionaries, on the other hand, were sometimes more difficult. He loved having the missionaries over, and most of them behaved well, but there were a couple of problems. One time, an Elder asked him "Is drinking beer more important to you than being with your family forever?" He was seriously ticked off with that one. I was the WML at the time, and got after the Elder for what he did. The Elder came back and said something along the lines of "This guy isn't progressing, he either needs to commit to move forward or we'll have to drop him." I basically told them to go ahead and drop him then. He was gaining value from coming to church; the rest of us were gaining value from him coming to church. I don't see how anyone benefits from basically telling him "you are 100% with us, or we want no part of you."

Interesting story and it rings so true. I don't know if it is the time we are in or just the time "I" am in. However, I am now a believer that the WOW is way overrated.

My backing would be that actually someone in the church would think the WOW is more important than some guy and his family.

[Clark Addison]

I agree with this. I am a big tent guy. Don't smoke in the building, please. But come. We recently had a member die in my ward. Struggled with WoW problems. Struggled horribly. He was trying to beat them, but having a hard time. It was a continual struggle. And yet he was at church almost every Sunday, sitting there on the back row. His death was random and unexpected (and had nothing to do with his WoW issues). Do I think he was better off for coming? Absolutely. And we were better off for having him. He was struggling but he was moving in the right direction.

If you believe our theology the way it is written, not one of us is worthy of exaltation. The little lie I tell to the shopkeeper on the way to work is as bad as the pack a day my friend smoked, or the burglary an unknown guy down in the Third Ward commits tomorrow. From the point of view of impact on salvation, I should say (the effects temporally obviously vary). Any one of those things is too much. Only through the grace of God and the atonement are we offered redemption. We are all sinners. The only difference is that I put on a happy face and pretend to be hunky-dory when I go to church on Sunday and hide my sins, whereas my WoW friend was open about his and trying more actively to rid himself of them. I would not presume myself to be in a better position than him should I die right now.

That, friends, sums up the only theology I know I believe.

Good post. It reminds me of a guy who used to be in our ward. His wife was a member, he was not, but he was fantastic. He came to church every week (skipped SS and Priesthood, but that isn't uncommon), came to all the ward activities, served on the ward activities committee, and even paid tithing on his income, which is, in my mind, incredible. I will say that all the members of the ward were great. They accepted him completely as he was, and there were no problems.

The missionaries, on the other hand, were sometimes more difficult. He loved having the missionaries over, and most of them behaved well, but there were a couple of problems. One time, an Elder asked him "Is drinking beer more important to you than being with your family forever?" He was seriously ticked off with that one. I was the WML at the time, and got after the Elder for what he did. The Elder came back and said something along the lines of "This guy isn't progressing, he either needs to commit to move forward or we'll have to drop him." I basically told them to go ahead and drop him then. He was gaining value from coming to church; the rest of us were gaining value from him coming to church. I don't see how anyone benefits from basically telling him "you are 100% with us, or we want no part of you."

[byu71]

I second IJR's praise of sharing this 71. It really touched me and made me realize that maybe it's not given to me to know, but to have on the words of those that do. Thanks!

Thanks man. It is nice to know something I contribute here is worthwhile to someone else.

Again, the comfort to me is that it is a gift. The knowers are not any more worthy than those who believe through the gift of hearing.

Of course those who believe in the fence sitter theory may not agree with me.

[wuapinmon]

To some the gift is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died for our sins.

To others the gift is given to believe on their words that they might have eternal life.

Not quoted verbatum, but it is in the D&C Section 46 I think versus 11 and 12.

I don't think I have the first gift. When I realized this, it was comforting to me. That gift wasn't given me. The scripture to me doesn't indicate anything about worthiness to receive the certain gifts. I think the scripture says something like "to some it is given and to others it is given".


There are some whom I hear and am touched. Truthfully most I don't. I feel, good for them, but I am not touched. For me, this scripture gives me an out to not worry about someone who seems to have more faith than I do. I can only do the best with what gifts I was given.


For the intellects or religionists on the board, if I have botched the understanding of the scripture, don't tell me. I like how I feel about it.

I second IJR's praise of sharing this 71. It really touched me and made me realize that maybe it's not given to me to know, but to have on the words of those that do. Thanks!

[Slim]

I think there's a difference between social Mormons who have zero interest in ever believing in the teachings and those who are praying and studying and reading the scriptures and giving it a shot.

The problem is that after decades of praying, reading scriptures, and giving it a shot and then never feeling ANYTHING you start to become discouraged and think that maybe there are better uses of your time. I would never say that I have zero interest in believing the teachings of church (I would love nothing more than to find out that it is all true), but after getting to the point where I feel I've done everything I can to gain a testimony and never really achieved one, I'm willing to go through the motions for the sake of my family and their social and spiritual needs.

I love the people in the church and am proud to count them as my peers. I'm willing to put up with a lot of other stuff in order to maintain those connections.