Martin-Willie Handcart Immigrants

[SoonerCoug]

Interesting article from the Denver Post: http://www.denverpost.com/ci_11198729

As part of my heritage, being part of the Mormon aristocracy, I am naturally a descendant of multiple families from the Martin-Willie Handcart Companies.

I suspect this book was written by a relative (my grandmother was a Roberts and family was in company).

The author agrees that my heritage defines me as Mormon royalty.

Here is how I view it:

1) Impoverished, desperate Brits converted to Mormonism with promise of coming to a new, wonderful world.
2) These poor Brits put all their trust in Church leaders.
3) These poor Brits were from temperate England and had no idea what harsh winter could await them.
4) Church leaders intentionally sent them late, knowing that it would put their lives at risk.
5) About 250 of 900 impoverished immigrants died pulling their handcarts through the winter snow.
6) Church uses their story promiscuously for generations--not to apologize for the terrible mistakes of church leaders or their exploitation of these poor immigrants--but as a propaganda item celebrating the value of faith

Stupid leaders causing a terrible tragedy--done in the name of faith? Nothing to celebrate here. It was a direct result of faith / insanity.

These are the conveniently ignored fruits of devout belief.

[Bo Diddley]

So there are obviously many things about the Church that you don't like. I suppose we'll hear from you about each of them as you get them off your chest. Is that it? You need to get them off your chest? Or are you trying to convert others to your way of thinking? Perhaps you see yourself as a missionary of sorts.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Interesting review. The review is clearly polemic in nature, as if the author has an axe to grind. I wonder if the book suffers from the same flaw.

[SoonerCoug]

So there are obviously many things about the Church that you don't like. I suppose we'll hear from you about each of them as you get them off your chest. Is that it? You need to get them off your chest? Or are you trying to convert others to your way of thinking? Perhaps you see yourself as a missionary of sorts.

It's a new book and a review. How many Sunday school lessons did you learn about these victims? They are victims. Not beneficiaries. They died because of faith. Not for a good reason, but for no good reason. Have you ever heard this said in church? I have said it in church, and people were shocked. Why is the truth shocking in a church that claims to be the one true church?

I am trying to find out more about the author. But I can say that my devout LDS Grandmother Roberts passed the truth down through the generations. The reality of what happened wasn't lost on those who were involved--as much as the church whitewashed it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's a new book and a review. How many Sunday school lessons did you learn about these victims? They are victims. Not beneficiaries. They died because of faith. Not for a good reason, but for no good reason. Have you ever heard this said in church? I have said it in church, and people were shocked. Why is the truth shocking in a church that claims to be the one true church?

I am trying to find out more about the author. But I can say that my devout LDS Grandmother Roberts passed the truth down through the generations. The reality of what happened wasn't lost on those who were involved--as much as the church whitewashed it.

(groan...)

If you are going to be this prolific, can you at least try not to be so darned banal? Good heavens, what a cheesy line.

[Bo Diddley]

It's a new book and a review. How many Sunday school lessons did you learn about these victims? They are victims. Not beneficiaries. They died because of faith. Not for a good reason, but for no good reason. Have you ever heard this said in church? I have said it in church, and people were shocked. Why is the truth shocking in a church that claims to be the one true church?

I am trying to find out more about the author. But I can say that my devout LDS Grandmother Roberts passed the truth down through the generations. The reality of what happened wasn't lost on those who were involved--as much as the church whitewashed it.

Exactly. This is one of those issues you have with the Church. Is this a new issue for you? And I'll ask again, do you feel the need to get these things off your chest, or do you see yourself as a missionary of sorts? I'm just trying to understand you.

[SoonerCoug]

From the book. Harsh but probably true:

image.jpg

[SoonerCoug]

Exactly. This is one of those issues you have with the Church. Is this a new issue for you? And I'll ask again, do you feel the need to get these things off your chest, or do you see yourself as a missionary of sorts? I'm just trying to understand you.

I'm a person who enjoys discussing and debating tough questions.

I'm also disturbed by church propaganda, which I view as something akin to North Korean propaganda. That's why I think discussing the truth is valuable.

If the Church were to say: There was a failure of church leadership on multiple levels in sending these poor immigrants into the cold winter late in the year using poorly constructed carts--that would help. If they used the story as an example of the dangers of false hope and blind faith, it would help. Instead, they celebrate in lesson manuals these poor victims of failed leadership as faithful heroes instead of properly memorializing them as victims of extremism (e.g., the belief that God would withhold the snow for them).

[myboynoah]

From the book. Harsh but probably true:

[ATTACH]4544[/ATTACH]

So, probably not true as well.

[SoonerCoug]

So, probably not true as well.

Listen dude--my ancestors died in these companies. I've read their journals. They were deceived and died because of it. That is the truth.

But you can go right on celebrating the Church for lying to them, sending poor people with handcarts into the snow, and exploiting the victims' graves as propaganda for more than a century.

Does it make you feel good to celebrate faith that taught people that God would withhold snow for them and resulted in 250 people starving and freezing to death? Evil is the only word for it.

Maybe you are unaware of the details of their circumstances. If your only source is the Church and lesson manuals, I can see why you wouldn't understand. Try an objective source as in a real historian who documented how Church leaders mismanaged and lied to these people, prompting them to cross the plains late in the year.

[Jeff Lebowski]

From the book. Harsh but probably true:

[ATTACH]4544[/ATTACH]

Well, that answers my first question.

[SoonerCoug]

Well, that answers my first question.

Are you considering the facts here? These people were told that God would not allow snow to fall on them by their priesthood leaders and Brigham Young sent them late in the year. This resulted in 250 deaths. This true fanaticism is celebrated today. Is that not evil?

[myboynoah]

Listen dude--my ancestors died in these companies. I've read their journals. They were deceived and died because of it. That is the truth.

But you can go right on celebrating the Church for lying to them, sending poor people with handcarts into the snow, and exploiting the victims' graves as propaganda for more than a century.

Does it make you feel good to celebrate faith that taught people that God would withhold snow for them and resulted in 250 people starving and freezing to death? Evil is the only word for it.

Maybe you are unaware of the details of their circumstances. If your only source is the Church and lesson manuals, I can see why you wouldn't understand. Try an objective source as in a real historian who documented how Church leaders mismanaged and lied to these people, prompting them to cross the plains late in the year.

Why should I bother? You've made the decision for me.

[Northwestcoug]

Let's try a different tack, Sooner. Yes, their priesthood leaders promised them that God would protect them. And those handcart pioneers put their faith in those leaders, believing that God spoke through them. Both were proven to be terribly wrong. Was it tragic? Absolutely. Does it make a strong case to doubt inspiration from church leaders? You bet. It certainly does for me. But to call the church evil because it interprets their death in a believing framework? C'mon. The church venerates their death just like our government venerates war veterans. They honor their sacrifice without making a moral judgment about what got them there in the first place.

[TripletDaddy]

I'm not going to bother to read the book. Ironically, we can thank sooner for that, as he recently taught me that there is nothing I can learn from books that will help me in my church service. Not a single thing.