Elizabeth Smart & Chewing Gum

[CardiacCoug]

I'm getting at the point that you misrepresented what he said (shocking). I am not sure what exactly he means, but when read in context ... it sounds like he is talking about consenting to participating in sexual sin when you are not coerced to do so. I actually don't really think that is too hard to understand. Where you got that he was talking about being raped is beyond me.

Ha! So you're explaining that RGS said "victim" of abuse when what he really meant was consensual participant in extramarital sex.

And I'm the one trying to misrepresent what he said. Gotcha. Funny stuff.

[UVACoug]

(A) the quote would include rape victims whether or not it included abuse victims. This is the sort of thing you see on the LSAT. Venn diagrams, all that.

Ummm ... no. When read in context, there is nothing to suggest he is talking about rape victims in that section.

(B) ignoring A, does that somehow make the statement any less deplorable?

It depends on what you think he is talking about. Is he talking about people that are physically forced or coerced into sexual sin? I don't think he is ... but if you do, then I agree it would be deplorable.

[CardiacCoug]

I don't think a single one of those quotes support the position. In fact, quite a few support the opposite.

[UVACoug]

What are you getting at here?

So if it's not just rape then it makes sense that God will prompt abuse victims that they in fact bear some responsibility for being abused?

I'm getting at the point that you misrepresented what he said (shocking). I am not sure what exactly he means, but when read in context ... it sounds like he is talking about consenting to participating in sexual sin when you are not coerced to do so. I actually don't really think that is too hard to understand. Where you got that he was talking about being raped is beyond me.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't think a single one of those quotes support the position. In fact, quite a few support the opposite.

Seriously? This is what UVACoug asked:

Please show me where someone taught it was better to die than be raped.

You honestly don't think ANY of those quotes support the idea that it is better to die than to submit to rape? What am I missing?

[UVACoug]

No kidding. It's absurd that these young girls don't know the etymology of these words. Absurd!.

We had a chat around the dinner table tonight and my teenage daughter has heard both the chewed gum and licked cupcake analogies in YW. Thankfully, she thinks both are BS.

I didn't realize that you were all rape victims. I thought I was talking to people that claim to be smarter than the average Mormon.

[UVACoug]

Here are a few.

While I don't agree with those quotes, it is not nearly the same things as the suggestion that rape victims become unworthy or unclean or bad or sinners because they were raped. It's not hard to understand the point they are trying to make ... even if you disagree with it. There is no need to exaggerate and sensationalize it.

I agree 100% with Elizabeth Smart that the Church (and the culture in general) needs to do a better job at teaching women at a young age that they should not be ashamed of being raped. I have a sister that was raped and she had a very difficult time overcoming it. There are several things like this that the Church can be more clear on. That doesn't excuse claiming that church leaders teach something that they clearly don't teach.

[All-American]

Here are a few.

I don't think a single one of those quotes support the position. In fact, quite a few support the opposite.

[Pheidippides]

It matters because CardiacCoug claimed he was talking about rape victims.

(A) the quote would include rape victims whether or not it included abuse victims. This is the sort of thing you see on the LSAT. Venn diagrams, all that.

(B) ignoring A, does that somehow make the statement any less deplorable?

[UVACoug]

lol.
I love how we're getting into historical definitions of virtue and source checking.
stupid rape victims. why can't they educate themselves on nineteenth century English? and don't they ever verify sources?

Who said anything about rape victims? I am talking about intellectually superior people here who don't seem to be able to understand modern english (note that the CURRENT dictionary definition of "virtue" and "chastity" have a secondary meaning that make them synonymous to "virginity"). The only way you can read Moroni 9:9 and think he is saying that rape victims are less good than non-rape victims is if you are ignorant of the secondary meaning of those words ... or you have an agenda.

[UVACoug]

And that matters because?

It matters because CardiacCoug claimed he was talking about rape victims.

[CardiacCoug]

He's clearly talking about more than just rape.

What are you getting at here?

So if it's not just rape then it makes sense that God will prompt abuse victims that they in fact bear some responsibility for being abused?

[Indy Coug]

No kidding. It's absurd that these young girls don't know the etymology of these words. Absurd!.

[Jeff Lebowski]

lol.
I love how we're getting into historical definitions of virtue and source checking.
stupid rape victims. why can't they educate themselves on nineteenth century English? and don't they ever verify sources?

No kidding. It's absurd that these young girls don't know the etymology of these words. Absurd!.

We had a chat around the dinner table tonight and my teenage daughter has heard both the chewed gum and licked cupcake analogies in YW. Thankfully, she thinks both are BS.

[Indy Coug]

lol.
I love how we're getting into historical definitions of virtue and source checking.
stupid rape victims. why can't they educate themselves? and don't they ever verify sources?

WTF do you get that 'rape victims need to educate themselves'? As for what words meant back in the day, you can see the Standard Works are replete with footnotes trying to assist us to with that very thing.