The Calling of a Bishop

[grapevine]

Hal told of taking his sons on scout trips when he was involved in Scouts. That was when he was scoutmaster in Pal Alto or Rexburg I beleive. May 2001 ces devotional. I don't think you are to do that now. I seen scoutmasters take there kids on camps and family and it can cause distractions and problems. Why should not do it.

some well he probably just graduated from HS but who remembers that kid that got lost on some outing. Found doing something on cellphone type game. Lucky he was found. But there are reasons not to take young sons to things.

As for Bishop I don't know of one that asked for the calling. Humbled by it. Most don't want it. That is why I cringe when I hear of people that hillary about the Bishop. Particularly when they don't want to follow counsel anyway.

[Xander]

Good advice. I do question the 11-year olds being picked on (hazing?) that might occur in LDS troops. Always a concern, but how much of one? I started out scouting in a non-LDS troop (only option for me at the time) and the 11-year olds camped with other scouts, some as old as 16 or 17. The difference was that we had a 15-16 year old patrol leader looking out for the new scouts. Yes, we did endure snipe hunts but nothing close to hazing. And my patrol leader actually protected me from my bully-for-an-older brother on a campout when he tasked me with cleaning his dirty dishes which I refused.

I think the scout driven and older boys mentoring younger ones is a concept that the LDS version of scouting totally misses the boat on (in my experience). Rather than a mature, experienced 16-year-old patrol leader helping 11-12 year old scouts; we get a 13 year-old kid leading 12 year olds. And we end up with a leader driven program instead of a scout driven one. In my view, the mentoring opportunities outweigh the bullying concerns. We have some of the best YM around and yet under utilize them out of fear some 11-year old scout will get picked on. I'm confident that a handful of other scouts would stop the bully in his tracks. If we've somehow raised a troop of bully scouts than we have a far greater problem. (In this example, I'm describing a non-LDS troop with age ranges from 11-17; not the LDS version of mixing 11 year-olds with 12-13 aged deacons).

When I talked to a local community troop at a scout leader training that's how they ran things. 11-17 year-olds in were all in the same troop. They seemed to have their act together. Why does the church modify scouting and give it their own LDS flavor? Because it fits in their idea of the priesthood and priesthood offices. When did the Aaronic priesthood become just a youth program anyway? In the early days they didn't give it to people until they were adults.

[myboynoah]

It's definitely personalities clashing mixed with a product of strict versus more casual observance. I'm a having a SoonerCoug day so another story. The teachers/priests wanted to do a video gaming night a few years ago. What they really wanted was a Halo interactive competition. But there was a YM who wasn't allowed to play video games and his parents tried to nix the whole deal and they were actually successful - the activity turned into a board game night. But not before the wheels of organization had started moving - XBoxs were comitted and so was my family room. So we just moved the Halo gaming activity to a Friday night and made it non-church sanctioned. Rather than exclude the YM who wasn't allowed to play video games, we mentioned that a TV would also be comitted to playing soccer/football/basketball. So this YM tells his parents that the only games that would be played are sports video games in order to get their approval. The parents had fond recollections of playing pong (I'm not making this up!) so they thought sports video games would be OK.

They were livid when they found out that Halo was also being played under my roof. I was asked how I could possbily allow mature video games like Halo to be played in my home. I just replied, "My house, my rules". I mentioned that there must have been a misunderstanding about this being a sport only video game party as the sports video games were only meant to be an alternative. And I lied about their son only playing sports video games and being a shining example to the rest of his quorum (he was TQ president). The reality was that he played Halo with the rest of the YM...and it wasn't the first time he had played Halo.

Reaching out to the one.

[Topper]

Totally agree. And this was good advice given to me from a member of my stake presidency. He would always insist that one of his sons be in the car with him when transporting other scouts. In the LDS world, there's never enough leadership on campouts to be two-deep while in cars. So having at least your own son in the car is a form of protection. All it would take would be for a leader to be alone in a car with another scout and be accussed of slapping him or something worse. That would be the end of that adult's participation in scouting - it wouldn't matter whether that accusation was true.

Something similar happened to a friend of a friend so it's second hand info. A scout was complaining on a hike and ruining it for everyone. After a while, he lagged behing and a leader was sent back to escort him back to the troop who was waiting. The scout accussed the leader of spanking him in order to get him to hike faster. The complaint wasn't made until the scout got home and cried to his mother. The leader denied the accusation but it didn't matter as there were no other witnesses. He was out of scouting.

In light of litigation paranoia, the Church can either require all parents to transport their own sons and disband scouting altogether.

[Blueintheface]

For those who might otherwise be worthy of the calling but do not wish for it, I'm thinking these aren't bad strategies. As I've reported before, at least 2-3 times a week, the GA's receive letters from men that read something like, "After many years of managing a successful business, I'm now about to retire and would be willing to serve as a mission president, and I have the skills to be a very good one." None of these correspondents have ever been called to be a mission president.

That is hilarious. Campaigning for a higher calling? Such a strange thing to do IMO.

I can only recall one similar situation (excluding the mission of course). My former exceptionally annoying neighbor moved over to the adjacent new development primarily for the opportunity to be in the bishopric in the soon-to-be formed ward. He told everyone he could about that he felt he was called to serve as bishop right away. Fast forward 3 years and he's the YM President and has been since the ward was formed. A great and important calling but I'm sure the campaigning continues.

It didn't help that each and every week he showed up wearing a Utah tie.

[Paperback Writer]

It is discouraged to be in the same car alone with a deacon who is not your son, let along taking him camping with you. Taking your son along was the best protection you could have.

Totally agree. And this was good advice given to me from a member of my stake presidency. He would always insist that one of his sons be in the car with him when transporting other scouts. In the LDS world, there's never enough leadership on campouts to be two-deep while in cars. So having at least your own son in the car is a form of protection. All it would take would be for a leader to be alone in a car with another scout and be accussed of slapping him or something worse. That would be the end of that adult's participation in scouting - it wouldn't matter whether that accusation was true.

Something similar happened to a friend of a friend so it's second hand info. A scout was complaining on a hike and ruining it for everyone. After a while, he lagged behing and a leader was sent back to escort him back to the troop who was waiting. The scout accussed the leader of spanking him in order to get him to hike faster. The complaint wasn't made until the scout got home and cried to his mother. The leader denied the accusation but it didn't matter as there were no other witnesses. He was out of scouting.

[Paperback Writer]

In general it is not a good idea to mix 11-yr-old scouts in with regular scouts on activities, just due to the dynamics of age difference. The older scouts tend to pick on the 11-yr-olds and it can sour them on scouting. Furthermore, church policy (general handbook? primary handbook?) is that 11-yr-olds should only do three overnight camps per year. However that is a general rule for the 11-yr-old programs. Furthermore, leaders are discouraged from bringing younger kids because they can be a distraction and limit the effectiveness of the leader in keeping track of the kids (imagine a leader with a bunch of little kids at camp, for example). However, for wards with really small numbers, it might make good sense to mix up more as long as you have good leadership.

That being said, if a father or scout leader has to go on a campout and he wants to bring along an 11-yr-old son, I can't imagine why anyone would care. Your stake would be nuts to make a big deal about it.

I learned a long time ago that you shouldn't worry too much about overzealous leaders in cases like this. If they nitpick about something just say: "Fine, go ahead and release me." If you are doing a good job overall, that will shut them up faster than anything. The last thing they want to do is find a replacement for an effective scout leader.

Good advice. I do question the 11-year olds being picked on (hazing?) that might occur in LDS troops. Always a concern, but how much of one? I started out scouting in a non-LDS troop (only option for me at the time) and the 11-year olds camped with other scouts, some as old as 16 or 17. The difference was that we had a 15-16 year old patrol leader looking out for the new scouts. Yes, we did endure snipe hunts but nothing close to hazing. And my patrol leader actually protected me from my bully-for-an-older brother on a campout when he tasked me with cleaning his dirty dishes which I refused.

I think the scout driven and older boys mentoring younger ones is a concept that the LDS version of scouting totally misses the boat on (in my experience). Rather than a mature, experienced 16-year-old patrol leader helping 11-12 year old scouts; we get a 13 year-old kid leading 12 year olds. And we end up with a leader driven program instead of a scout driven one. In my view, the mentoring opportunities outweigh the bullying concerns. We have some of the best YM around and yet under utilize them out of fear some 11-year old scout will get picked on. I'm confident that a handful of other scouts would stop the bully in his tracks. If we've somehow raised a troop of bully scouts than we have a far greater problem. (In this example, I'm describing a non-LDS troop with age ranges from 11-17; not the LDS version of mixing 11 year-olds with 12-13 aged deacons).

[Topper]

Joseph Smith's sacrifice has greatly benefited my family, so it's more than just a matter of your immediate family. I would dare say that a bishop can likewise impact the lives of many more than just his family.

If we're busy looking out for #1, odds are that our lives will be more like #2.

Yes, it is great he blessed your family, but not his own. This is a wonderful message to our members:

Do not bless your own family, take no heed of them, but bless the lives of thousands others, they will praise your name and we the Church will ignore your families as they fall into disbelief. But trust us in the morning

It is truly a recipe for success. I admire it.

[smokymountainrain]

For those who might otherwise be worthy of the calling but do not wish for it, I'm thinking these aren't bad strategies. As I've reported before, at least 2-3 times a week, the GA's receive letters from men that read something like, "After many years of managing a successful business, I'm now about to retire and would be willing to serve as a mission president, and I have the skills to be a very good one." None of these correspondents have ever been called to be a mission president.

There are a lot of strange people out there.

[Katy Lied]

Another example, I got busted by another parent for taking an 11-year son on a Deacon's campout. A Dad had pulled out at the last minute because his wife insisted they go out on a date (they still sent their deacon son on the campout). I got a panicked call from the Scoutmaster asking if I could help out and go camping; otherwise, the campout would have to be canceled. My wife was out town with our daughter and our older kids were at EFY. So I was at home with my 11-year old son and he didn't want to be at home alone. The Scoutmaster said it was OK for me to bring my Boy Scout 11-year old son on the campout with me. We packed and had a good time on the campout. Someone complained to the Bishop that an 11-year was brought on a Deacon's campout in violation of the handbook. The Scoutmaster got in trouble for allowing it and I got talked to as well. I asked what I should have done and was told I should have declined or found a place for my son to spend the night (had I been thinking more clearly I would have brought up his several sermons on the evils of sleepovers).

It is discouraged to be in the same car alone with a deacon who is not your son, let along taking him camping with you. Taking your son along was the best protection you could have.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I just reviewed the LDS Scouting Handbook expecting to see something there about prohibiting 11-year-olds from camping with deacons (besides the 3 times a year they are allowed to camp) but there's no such direction. So I think this policy is at the stake level. My stake has gone back and forth with it. I attended scout camp with two of my 11-year old sons but the policy changed sometime after my youngest son went to camp with me. Because I knew it was against policy when I went on that next campout with him. I had thought it was because the church may have changed its policy but that is not the case. Just another example of how my stake is messed up. Stake rules on top of LDS BSA rules on top of regular BSA rules. But I know for a fact it is currently prohibited by my stake because it came up this past summer. Another adult volunteer was needed for scout camp and he wanted to take his 11-year old son but was told he couldn't (next volunteer, as if there is a long line).

And the issue came up again when we planned an 11-year old campout. A couple of deacons asked if they could join us and we thought it was a good idea as we we pressing the PP for a troop guide and thought it would make for a good audition. Unbeknownst to us, the scoutmaster announced our campout to the DQ and we were told to expect a couple more boys but couldn't get an exact count. So in additon to four 11-year old scouts, eight deacons show up at the church and we don't have enough car seats and room for all the gear (none of the DQ leaders showed up, just the scouts). Didn't get anywhere with calling the YM leaders for help so the RS had to come to the rescue and haul scouts and gear to the campsite. We decided to implement our own policy that if DQ scouts were going to camp with the 11-year-old scouts, they had to furnish leaders and transportation. I wanted the policy to be that if a deacon came with us that his father had to come along as well until I was informed that it would exclude certain boys (or almost all of them).

In general it is not a good idea to mix 11-yr-old scouts in with regular scouts on activities, just due to the dynamics of age difference. The older scouts tend to pick on the 11-yr-olds and it can sour them on scouting. Furthermore, church policy (general handbook? primary handbook?) is that 11-yr-olds should only do three overnight camps per year. However that is a general rule for the 11-yr-old programs. Furthermore, leaders are discouraged from bringing younger kids because they can be a distraction and limit the effectiveness of the leader in keeping track of the kids (imagine a leader with a bunch of little kids at camp, for example). However, for wards with really small numbers, it might make good sense to mix up more as long as you have good leadership.

That being said, if a father or scout leader has to go on a campout and he wants to bring along an 11-yr-old son, I can't imagine why anyone would care. Your stake would be nuts to make a big deal about it.

I learned a long time ago that you shouldn't worry too much about overzealous leaders in cases like this. If they nitpick about something just say: "Fine, go ahead and release me." If you are doing a good job overall, that will shut them up faster than anything. The last thing they want to do is find a replacement for an effective scout leader.

[creekster]

I have told this story a few times, so please forgive me.

Case #1: When I was a kid we were notified that our bishop would be stepping down. For the next 2-3 weeks a guy in our neighborhood put on an impressive campaign. He started wearing his best suits and ties, commented every chance he could get in meetings, and prior to priesthood he would go up and down the aisle and personally shake hands with everyone in attendance. It was something to be behold.

Case #2: A few years ago we were again in a bishop transition period and my neighbor told me that he had a dream telling him that he should be the new bishop (he was not remotely bishop material). He said that he went to visit the SP to inform him of the revelation. To his shock, the SP was rather rude to him.

We had a guy in our ward some years back who was called to be on the scout committee. He accepted but told the counselor that he knew he would not be in the calling long as a new bishop was going to be called in the next month and, well, lets just say he was inpsired to know he would be involved. The new bishop was called and this guy continued to serve on the scout committee for many years.

[jay santos]

That is standard across the board, in my experience. We had three 11 year olds (and dads, of course) at scout camp this year.

Same

[PaloAltoCougar]

I have told this story a few times, so please forgive me.

Case #1: When I was a kid we were notified that our bishop would be stepping down. For the next 2-3 weeks a guy in our neighborhood put on an impressive campaign. He started wearing his best suits and ties, commented every chance he could get in meetings, and prior to priesthood he would go up and down the aisle and personally shake hands with everyone in attendance. It was something to be behold.

Case #2: A few years ago we were again in a bishop transition period and my neighbor told me that he had a dream telling him that he should be the new bishop (he was not remotely bishop material). He said that he went to visit the SP to inform him of the revelation. To his shock, the SP was rather rude to him.

For those who might otherwise be worthy of the calling but do not wish for it, I'm thinking these aren't bad strategies. As I've reported before, at least 2-3 times a week, the GA's receive letters from men that read something like, "After many years of managing a successful business, I'm now about to retire and would be willing to serve as a mission president, and I have the skills to be a very good one." None of these correspondents have ever been called to be a mission president.

[Paperback Writer]

BTW, 11 year olds can go on scout campouts as long as they have a parent with them, at least that is our ward policy. I've never seen anything in the CHoI that says otherwise. Maybe someone could link the portion of the handbook so I can show it to my bishop, who's 11-year old son went on scout camp this year.

I just reviewed the LDS Scouting Handbook expecting to see something there about prohibiting 11-year-olds from camping with deacons (besides the 3 times a year they are allowed to camp) but there's no such direction. So I think this policy is at the stake level. My stake has gone back and forth with it. I attended scout camp with two of my 11-year old sons but the policy changed sometime after my youngest son went to camp with me. Because I knew it was against policy when I went on that next campout with him. I had thought it was because the church may have changed its policy but that is not the case. Just another example of how my stake is messed up. Stake rules on top of LDS BSA rules on top of regular BSA rules. But I know for a fact it is currently prohibited by my stake because it came up this past summer. Another adult volunteer was needed for scout camp and he wanted to take his 11-year old son but was told he couldn't (next volunteer, as if there is a long line).

And the issue came up again when we planned an 11-year old campout. A couple of deacons asked if they could join us and we thought it was a good idea as we we pressing the PP for a troop guide and thought it would make for a good audition. Unbeknownst to us, the scoutmaster announced our campout to the DQ and we were told to expect a couple more boys but couldn't get an exact count. So in additon to four 11-year old scouts, eight deacons show up at the church and we don't have enough car seats and room for all the gear (none of the DQ leaders showed up, just the scouts). Didn't get anywhere with calling the YM leaders for help so the RS had to come to the rescue and haul scouts and gear to the campsite. We decided to implement our own policy that if DQ scouts were going to camp with the 11-year-old scouts, they had to furnish leaders and transportation. I wanted the policy to be that if a deacon came with us that his father had to come along as well until I was informed that it would exclude certain boys (or almost all of them).