Huge Blow Up in Quorum Meeting

[Sleeping in EQ]

So yesterday during priesthood a High Priest didn't like my comment and decided to get vicious. One of the missionaries had asked about the "neither marrying nor given in marriage" passage in Matthew 22, and this High Priest had shared the infamouse Elder McConkie quote where McConkie surmises what Jesus didn't say and why he didn't say it.

I spoke up for the 3rd time in seven months and said that the difficulty with what Elder McConkie is saying is that if you don't already believe he's an apostle, you don't have any reason to be persuaded by his claim. I then shared my thoughts about how it is reasonable to interpret the passage as suggesting that Jesus rejected the Saduceess' premise--that the law of Moses didn't apply to the issue of marriage in heaven because the law of Moses didn't apply in heaven.

Well, this High Priest decided to hold court and subjected me--the young whippersnapper--to a personal attack. Perhaps he felt attacked himself. I reasserted my point and questioned why he was letting things become so personal. Voices were raised on both sides.

Throughout all of this, Quorum and Group leadership said and did nothing. Afterward, no leaders talked with me. The missionary and one other fellow did come over and thank me for my comment.

I want to use this incident to push for the Elders and High Priests to meet separately. There are only about eight active Elders in this ward, but the differences in stage-of-life needs are just too great. The High Priests want repose and smother any idea that isn't comfortable. Weeks go by and not a single Elder speaks up at all. The High Priests use their age and experience to bludgeon the Elders, and there's no comraderie or brotherhood whatsoever. Yesterday's incident was old-fashioned bullying and was shameful. I've had my fill of it.

So how should I go about this?

[jay santos]

So how should I go about this?

Volunteer for a primary calling.

[DrumNFeather]

I'd probably have a chat with the EQP and get his take on things, specifically, the blow up and go from there. I don't think it is unreasonable for you to want to not be in the same meeting as the high priests, no matter how small each Quorum is. It's very likely that other elders feel the same as you do, so it would probably be a welcomed change for many of them as well.

If the EQP doesn't see a problem, then perhaps you elevate it to the bishop during (hey!) tithing settlement or something. If the bishop is truly interested in how you are and you said "well, not good and here's why..." then it should be enough of a motivator to have a change occur.

[pellegrino]

So yesterday during priesthood a High Priest didn't like my comment and decided to get vicious. One of the missionaries had asked about the "neither marrying nor given in marriage" passage in Matthew 22, and this High Priest had shared the infamouse Elder McConkie quote where McConkie surmises what Jesus didn't say and why he didn't say it.

I spoke up for the 3rd time in seven months and said that the difficulty with what Elder McConkie is saying is that if you don't already believe he's an apostle, you don't have any reason to be persuaded by his claim. I then shared my thoughts about how it is reasonable to interpret the passage as suggesting that Jesus rejected the Saduceess' premise--that the law of Moses didn't apply to the issue of marriage in heaven because the law of Moses didn't apply in heaven.

Well, this High Priest decided to hold court and subjected me--the young whippersnapper--to a personal attack. Perhaps he felt attacked himself. I reasserted my point and questioned why he was letting things become so personal. Voices were raised on both sides.

Throughout all of this, Quorum and Group leadership said and did nothing. Afterward, no leaders talked with me. The missionary and one other fellow did come over and thank me for my comment.

I want to use this incident to push for the Elders and High Priests to meet separately. There are only about eight active Elders in this ward, but the differences in stage-of-life needs are just too great. The High Priests want repose and smother any idea that isn't comfortable. Weeks go by and not a single Elder speaks up at all. The High Priests use their age and experience to bludgeon the Elders, and there's no comraderie or brotherhood whatsoever. Yesterday's incident was old-fashioned bullying and was shameful. I've had my fill of it.

So how should I go about this?

this is actually kind of unbelievable. I can't remember the last time I heard an argument in an American Mormon church meeting. I'd just talk directly with the powers that be and tell them you think things should change. They probably don't want to change it because it takes effort to meet in small numbers and have an engaging lesson, especially for the HP group. It might help to volunteer to teach every EQ lesson. Regardless, this type of atmosphere shouldn't exist in church. It's one thing where a typical "Mormon Nice" behavior stifles discussion, it's another entirely when verbal violence becomes acceptable.

One more thing, since this is a branch, I'm guessing that inexperience and timidity are what prevented leadership from intervening yesterday. Give them a chance to change things by approaching them.

[Uncle Ted]

About the only thing I miss about EQ meeting is times like this. (I have been meeting with the lower priesthood for about the last 10 years.) I would have loved to have been there in your priesthood meeting. Indeed, McConkie sometimes gave us way too much opinion supported by way too little fact. I would just keep the following quote handy...

"I admire men and women who have developed the questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent -- if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression. Both science and religion beget humility. Scientists and teachers of religion disagree among themselves on theological and other subjects. Even in our own church men and women take issue with one another and contend for their own interpretations. This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences." -Hugh B. Brown.

[TripletDaddy]

it would be interesting to read more detail about the HPs explanation of the question and your subsequent response.

Also, this is just my take, but if I am addressing a group of older guys that grew up in an era in which Bruce R was basically the doctrincal mouthpiece of the Church, I'm probably going to expect pushback when I imply in a group meeting that Bruce was up in the night and enjoyed a free pass mostly due to his title, not because he was correct. That is a radical comment for that audience.

[Sleeping in EQ]

it would be interesting to read more detail about the HPs explanation of the question and your subsequent response.

Also, this is just my take, but if I am addressing a group of older guys that grew up in an era in which Bruce R was basically the doctrincal mouthpiece of the Church, I'm probably going to expect pushback when I imply in a group meeting that Bruce was up in the night and enjoyed a free pass mostly due to his title, not because he was correct. That is a radical comment for that audience.

I was very sensitive about the Elder McConkie aspect and didn't directly address the veracity of Elder McConkie's claim (which may have been enough of an implication to make my comment a little radical).

The missionary's question was in the context of an investigator asking about this passage, and so I felt my comment was useful. All of this was only tangentially related to the lesson, which was ostensibly about the Millenium.

[Moliere]

So yesterday during priesthood a High Priest didn't like my comment and decided to get vicious. One of the missionaries had asked about the "neither marrying nor given in marriage" passage in Matthew 22, and this High Priest had shared the infamouse Elder McConkie quote where McConkie surmises what Jesus didn't say and why he didn't say it.

I spoke up for the 3rd time in seven months and said that the difficulty with what Elder McConkie is saying is that if you don't already believe he's an apostle, you don't have any reason to be persuaded by his claim. I then shared my thoughts about how it is reasonable to interpret the passage as suggesting that Jesus rejected the Saduceess' premise--that the law of Moses didn't apply to the issue of marriage in heaven because the law of Moses didn't apply in heaven.

I've never heard of BRM's interpretation of this saying so I have no opinion on who is right or wrong. I've read BRM's quote many times now and still can't fully understand what he's trying to say. Maybe I'm just slow.

Well, this High Priest decided to hold court and subjected me--the young whippersnapper--to a personal attack. Perhaps he felt attacked himself. I reasserted my point and questioned why he was letting things become so personal. Voices were raised on both sides.

Throughout all of this, Quorum and Group leadership said and did nothing. Afterward, no leaders talked with me. The missionary and one other fellow did come over and thank me for my comment.

I want to use this incident to push for the Elders and High Priests to meet separately. There are only about eight active Elders in this ward, but the differences in stage-of-life needs are just too great. The High Priests want repose and smother any idea that isn't comfortable. Weeks go by and not a single Elder speaks up at all. The High Priests use their age and experience to bludgeon the Elders, and there's no comraderie or brotherhood whatsoever. Yesterday's incident was old-fashioned bullying and was shameful. I've had my fill of it.

So how should I go about this?

This is sad, that someone would docrtinally challenge someone to the point of degrading them, especially when the other's viewpoints hang on the interpretation of BRM. You are correct though that the Mormon Doctrine-type mentality is alive and well in HPG.

I'm trying to figure out why your EQ and HPG meets together. Why can't 8 active elders be taught together? Is it because they'd rather just sit in the back and play on their phones during the lesson? Is there something about being an adult that makes it impossible to be taught in a small group setting?

[kccougar]

I've never heard of BRM's interpretation of this saying so I have no opinion on who is right or wrong. I've read BRM's quote many times now and still can't fully understand what he's trying to say. Maybe I'm just slow.



This is sad, that someone would docrtinally challenge someone to the point of degrading them, especially when the other's viewpoints hang on the interpretation of BRM. You are correct though that the Mormon Doctrine-type mentality is alive and well in HPG.

I'm trying to figure out why your EQ and HPG meets together. Why can't 8 active elders be taught together? Is it because they'd rather just sit in the back and play on their phones during the lesson? Is there something about being an adult that makes it impossible to be taught in a small group setting?

I can't remember the last time we had more than 8 elders in our quorum meeting.

[Moliere]

I can't remember the last time we had more than 8 elders in our quorum meeting.

And if you did have 8 active elders you'd likely only have a handful in quorum meeting since most of them would be serving in young mens/scouts.

[USUC]

About the only thing I miss about EQ meeting is times like this. (I have been meeting with the lower priesthood for about the last 10 years.) I would have loved to have been there in your priesthood meeting. Indeed, McConkie sometimes gave us way too much opinion supported by way too little fact. I would just keep the following quote handy...

That quote doesn't count because Hugh B Brown was a Democrat.

[Green Monstah]

I've been there and done that, and it's certainly a tricky situation.

Not to intentionally give you "Peter Priesthood" answers, but as soon as you feel able, I'd talk to the HP in question and attempt to patch things over with him. Acrimony in small branches can be toxic and chances are you and he are both exceptional people.

I'd also make the request to split the quorums, but don't get your heart too set on the idea, because it may not end up happening.

I wish that Church members were more open to honest discussion and differing viewpoints, but religion tends to breed conservatism (in the political sense and otherwise), which makes respectfully considering alternative ideas and approaches to the gospel difficult.

Best of luck (when I similar situation occurred with me, I was fortunate to only have six months left in that ward before I was moving, so my slate was cleaned fairly quickly).

[Green Monstah]

That quote doesn't count because Hugh B Brown was a Democrat.

and a CANADIAN!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Our HP group is kind of an odd mix. I think most of the guys have been around the block enough times to realize that life is complex and there are no black and white answers. In some ways, our HPG is more accepting of non-orthodox thought than our EQP. At the same time, we have a few old guys who are hard-line, old-school, BRM types and they sometimes dominate the conversations.

SEIQ, it is good for you to speak up, but it sounds like you got a little testy yourself (I can understand - I have been there). I think your best bet is to hang in there and try to be as positive and humble as possible.

[Surfah]

SIEQ I can relate. As an EQP of a small fledgling quorum (yesterday we had 4 Elders in our class and one was wearing a tag that said Elder) we have had some of the same issues. Fortunately, we have a great HPGL who saw the same need and asked why we were meeting together. I said I would be happy to meet apart. The only issue I have now is I have no teacher, so I teach most of the time.