Liquor licenses at Church's City Creek Center?

[All-American]

So it was the Church's own version of a Stimulus Package?

Not exactly. I've not seen anybody argue that this isn't a great investment, financially speaking. The stimulus package, on the other hand . . .

[Indy Coug]

So it was the Church's own version of a Stimulus Package?

[Shaka]

One other advantage of the City Creek Project. It has almost single handedly kept the Utah construction industry afloat during some very difficult times.

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[Moliere]

Do any of you have a problem with church owned ranches and farms?

The church obviously needs a place to put invest money it has saved. I have no issues with the church putting that money into real estate or ranches or farms or even Coca-cola stock. I know the church for years has owned some of the property downtown around temple square and I know they buy it and keep it up to keep downtown a nice place to visit. The church has a vested interest in doing this.

I'm fully against the church fully investing in the CCC project, but it's things like this that make me wonder if there is a better use for the funds. This isn't like building a temple or other project that is part of the mission of the church. Maybe there wasn't a better use of the funds at the time. Ultimately I'm fine with it, but I do wonder how the church makes these types of decisions. Do they have a finance department that runs FCF and NPV estimates and if so how do they calculate/incorporate the worth of a soul?

The bottom line is that these projects are lightning rods for the people that hate the corporate functions of the church. Personally I've decided that the church is less concerned about physical comfort/salvation and more concerned with spiritual comfort/salvation. Taking an eternal perspective on things, I guess I can see the reason for this emphasis.

[Shaka]

There is a homeless center in SLC and the church helps fund it.

I have zero problem with the church having a money making arm as long as the proceeds are used to help with ecclesiastical and humanitarian efforts. I have no reason to believe this will not be the case with the City Creek project.

Do any of you have a problem with church owned ranches and farms?

[wuapinmon]

1. If you have the faith to pay tithing, then it shouldn't ultimately matter where the money goes.

2. I'm not cleaning the damned ward building. I fell for "Celestial Service" once before.

3. Saying that these companies are not funded by tithing money is splitting hairs.

4. I wonder if the Church Office Building is cleaned by its employees.

5. I'd rather see the church open homeless shelters and after-school programs with paid employees than fancy shopping centers.

[Devildog]

I think the church has been running profit making businesses the entire time it has been in the Salt Lake Valley.

The church has run the buildings and office commercial/ retail across from Temple Square since the buildings were originally built.

[Moliere]

Salt Lake City will gain an image boost in the eyes of visitors from this development. It should provide a return on the money spent for decades to come.

Then we can use those returns to build a huge amusement park dedicated to LDS history and that will bring in huge returns. And then maybe a big waterpark or maybe a grocery store chain.

I don't have issues with the church being organized like a business. In fact it only makes sense that when you have volunteers running the church that have spent most of their lives in business they would run it in the way they know. I do have a problem with church projects being selected on profit when there are more pressing needs for the money.

Also, why do we need high end apartments downtown? Is that what the church thinks brings a good ambience? Wouldn't it be better to build some homeless shelters so when people got out of the temple the could go serve in the shelters.

[Surfah]

I can't for the life of me understand why this project has earned the amount of criticism it has. A private entity pumps a ton of money into revitalizing the downtown area, keeping hundreds employed along the way, and you're COMPLAINING? Who wouldn't love to have a neighbor like that?

(That isn't to say, by the way, that I don't understand some of the concerns that have been expressed, but the extent to which they bother people within and without the church seems inordinate to me.)

I agree with you.

[All-American]

I read somewhere that the CCC is the largest private construction project going in the nation right now.

All those contracted companies are making money providing services and employing thousands of people.

Salt Lake City and The State of Utah have just received several honors as leading the west, and even the nation in economic growth and fiscal discipline.

The CCC is right across the street from Temple Square (The church's worldwide headquarters). The church is committed to keeping that area economically viable, stable and productive.

Salt Lake City will gain an image boost in the eyes of visitors from this development. It should provide a return on the money spent for decades to come.

I can't for the life of me understand why this project has earned the amount of criticism it has. A private entity pumps a ton of money into revitalizing the downtown area, keeping hundreds employed along the way, and you're COMPLAINING? Who wouldn't love to have a neighbor like that?

(That isn't to say, by the way, that I don't understand some of the concerns that have been expressed, but the extent to which they bother people within and without the church seems inordinate to me.)

[Devildog]

I read somewhere that the CCC is the largest private construction project going in the nation right now.

All those contracted companies are making money providing services and employing thousands of people.

Salt Lake City and The State of Utah have just received several honors as leading the west, and even the nation in economic growth and fiscal discipline.

The CCC is right across the street from Temple Square (The church's worldwide headquarters). The church is committed to keeping that area economically viable, stable and productive.

Salt Lake City will gain an image boost in the eyes of visitors from this development. It should provide a return on the money spent for decades to come.

[UtahDan]

I can see that too, although I think it's a little less clear (million dollar condos are within some people's means...). I only mentioned the alcohol issue as an example because it was the origin of the thread--I think it's really just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think we can even foresee the real potential conflicts of interest that could arise.

I don't see it as a problem. I think church members expect the church to be run as a for profit business enterprise. There are limits, obviously, but the notion that a particular act is in the financial interest of the business is an adequate explanation for most members. There are businesses that will say "on principle we won't do X" like Chick-fil-A who won't open on Sunday regardless of whether it hurts them.

But no one much cares that the the Marriots sell porn, nor was anyone bothered that the church operated ZCMI mall on Sunday. Yes maybe there is a disconnect there, but that seems to be the state of things.

[ERCougar]

The "messiness", as I see it, comes from hearing "Live within your means" from the pulpit every six months and then seeing the ads for million dollar condos across the street.

I can see that too, although I think it's a little less clear (million dollar condos are within some people's means...). I only mentioned the alcohol issue as an example because it was the origin of the thread--I think it's really just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think we can even foresee the real potential conflicts of interest that could arise.

[hostile]

The issue isn't whether tithing dollars are being used for this venture, although their use would certainly add to the ethical fuzziness. It's whether an organization whose primary purpose is to save souls should be expending energy or thought into ventures that have nothing to do with saving souls. It has the potential for a lot messiness. If a restaurant in the development sells alcohol, then the church will be financing (and profiting from) an activity that it believes will ultimately damn souls. That's a little messy, no?

The "messiness", as I see it, comes from hearing "Live within your means" from the pulpit every six months and then seeing the ads for million dollar condos across the street.

[scottie]

There is a clear distinction between booze and porn. Alcohol is something we have been asked to avoid in this dispensation, while I'm pretty sure porn's taboo is timeless.

Are you saying that because of this distinction Mormons shouldn't/won't have a problem with the sell of liquor at CCC?