Liquor licenses at Church's City Creek Center?

[Katy Lied]

It also sounds very paranoid. The area immediately surrounding the Temple is in little to no danger of becoming a strip club/bar infested spittoon. Aside from the Church controlling development downtown and its immediate surroundings being split between Church ownership and large office buildings, there is not enough plight to overcome the downtown area. there just arent enough poor, homeless people or enough gang activity to justify the concern. At least at a price tag over a billion dollars.

I live here now. I work downtown. I havent seen the plight. Can someone direct me to all the gang tagging and strip clubs around the temple area? Not for me, of course....for a friend of mine...

You're not visionary enough. You're thinking short term: now and in the next decade. The church is thinking in terms of much longer. More than enough time for urban plight to set in.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Sort of like moving from East LA to Westwood?

I didn't say poor. I said crime ridden. You heard poor.

I can personally verify the crime ridden part.

[Katy Lied]

Heaven forbid that people visiting a religious site have to intermingle with the poor. I think you make the argument about as well as it can be made, but what you are talking about sounds like the Disneyification of religion.

Sort of like moving from East LA to Westwood?

I didn't say poor. I said crime ridden. You heard poor.

[RobinFinderson]

IIRC, a few years ago (5 - 6 I'm getting old and they all run together) someone tried to open a strip club in the old Dead Goat in Arrow Press Square, just east of the Salt Palace ( West Temple and between 1st and 2nd south). The Church fought it and eventually won in that the guy finally gave up.

If I were going to open a strip club near temple square, I would name it 'Holy Temple!'

[RobinFinderson]

It also sounds very paranoid. The area immediately surrounding the Temple is in little to no danger of becoming a strip club/bar infested spittoon...
I live here now. I work downtown. I havent seen the plight. Can someone direct me to all the gang tagging and strip clubs around the temple area? Not for me, of course....for a friend of mine...

This might be a valid argument if we weren't talking about men who have divine insight into what will happen in the future...

... but on the other hand, wouldn't it be immoral to make big private for-profit investments if you are a genuine 'seer'? I guess God has no problem with divine insider trading.

[happyone]

... I live here now. I work downtown. I havent seen the plight. Can someone direct me to all the gang tagging and strip clubs around the temple area? Not for me, of course....for a friend of mine...

IIRC, a few years ago (5 - 6 I'm getting old and they all run together) someone tried to open a strip club in the old Dead Goat in Arrow Press Square, just east of the Salt Palace ( West Temple and between 1st and 2nd south). The Church fought it and eventually won in that the guy finally gave up.

[DapperDan]

The Church should simply buy a big enough chunk of downtown and create its own sovereign nation, much like Vatican City. It can be the smallest country in the world, with its own currency (Kirtland money), language (reformed egyptian), and police force (Temple Square security). All the pieces are already in place.

I can get behind this, but first we have to get some new architects and artists.

[TripletDaddy]

Heaven forbid that people visiting a religious site have to intermingle with the poor. I think you make the argument about as well as it can be made, but what you are talking about sounds like the Disneyification of religion.

It also sounds very paranoid. The area immediately surrounding the Temple is in little to no danger of becoming a strip club/bar infested spittoon. Aside from the Church controlling development downtown and its immediate surroundings being split between Church ownership and large office buildings, there is not enough plight to overcome the downtown area. there just arent enough poor, homeless people or enough gang activity to justify the concern. At least at a price tag over a billion dollars.

I live here now. I work downtown. I havent seen the plight. Can someone direct me to all the gang tagging and strip clubs around the temple area? Not for me, of course....for a friend of mine...

[RobinFinderson]

This is my thought. When I've travelled all over, I've toured some marvelous architectural masterpieces in the middle of some slum hellholes...

The church is not going into the business of developing CCCs all over the world. They're just building one. Right in downtown SLC to buffer their holy buildings. And they dont want to lose the vibrancy of a living, breathing buffer area, so they want people to live there and work there and worship there...

Heaven forbid that people visiting a religious site have to intermingle with the poor. I think you make the argument about as well as it can be made, but what you are talking about sounds like the Disneyification of religion.

[Katy Lied]

I think they're worried about Temple Square becoming a fortress in the midst of Sodom and Gomorrah. You get bars and strip clubs on South Temple and are members going to want to drive in from the suburbs? What will visitors think? Things like Main Street Plaza, City Creek, moving BYU SL downtown are attempts to create sort of a buffer between TS and the rest of the city, to retain some of the mormon-ness around TS. Call it image, PR, missionary work, but that's the thinking as far as I'm concerned.

This is my thought. When I've travelled all over, I've toured some marvelous architectural masterpieces in the middle of some slum hellholes. Grafitti splashed all over the steps and the gates of the cathedrals, and pickpockets and thieves stationed right outside the entry doors. How many people will not go to see these great edifices because of the crime surrounding the building?

The church is not going into the business of developing CCCs all over the world. They're just building one. Right in downtown SLC to buffer their holy buildings. And they dont want to lose the vibrancy of a living, breathing buffer area, so they want people to live there and work there and worship there. Maybe too idealized for some people, and there is always room to argue that the church is not doing enough for the poor, but that's another argument.

Christ wasn't shy about specifying exactly how luxurious he wanted his temple buildings built. Even as he demonstrated how to give alms to the poor.

[RC Vikings]

This has all the makings of a Dan Brown book. Billions of dollars funneled through the church while those at the top are in taking in incredible amounts of money for themselves. No taxes, nobody to check on them, six days off a week to spend the money. Mabye SU could write it and give up on that one he's already started.

[Moliere]

The Church should simply buy a big enough chunk of downtown and create its own sovereign nation, much like Vatican City. It can be the smallest country in the world, with its own currency (Kirtland money), language (reformed egyptian), and police force (Temple Square security). All the pieces are already in place.

The Vatican has the Swiss Guards. TS should hire out the Royal Canadian Mounted Police!

[Sleeping in EQ]

And how will the profits from this venture get funneled back to the church? And who would stand to lose from potential losses? And who stands to gain from the profits that are not funneled back to the church? And what advantages does the for-profit side have because of its connection to a church? Can the church hold real estate without paying taxes on it, then sell that land to the for-profit side below market value? There is plenty of ethically questionable territory for the church navigate here, and there is pretty much zero incentive for members to look too closely at how the church is navigating this.

These are all reasonable questions.

[TripletDaddy]

The Church should simply buy a big enough chunk of downtown and create its own sovereign nation, much like Vatican City. It can be the smallest country in the world, with its own currency (Kirtland money), language (reformed egyptian), and police force (Temple Square security). All the pieces are already in place.

[All-American]

I think they're worried about Temple Square becoming a fortress in the midst of Sodom and Gomorrah. You get bars and strip clubs on South Temple and are members going to want to drive in from the suburbs? What will visitors think? Things like Main Street Plaza, City Creek, moving BYU SL downtown are attempts to create sort of a buffer between TS and the rest of the city, to retain some of the mormon-ness around TS. Call it image, PR, missionary work, but that's the thinking as far as I'm concerned.

They don't want Salt Lake to turn into Ogden. Seems reasonable enough.