The Daily Universe -- Defending Proposition 8

[Non Sequitur]

I've met both of them as well and I barely had enough of an exchange to formulate an opinion of them other than they smiled and shook my hand and seemed to have a generally cheery demeanor.

If you're going to insult me, at least get a little more creative.

I had more than a casual exchange with both of them, and the last word I would ever use to describe them is cheery. Dour comes to mind.

[SoCalCoug]

I just spoke with my friends. They are singing a different tune than they were two years ago. Apparently, LDSFS is going well out of its way to make sure they are buddy-buddy with whatever state agency that handles adoptions and still operates in Mass. from the Nashua office. CC simply refused to change its stance in any way, shape or form. The Church gets around the "sexual orientation discrimination" charge by limiting adoptive parent candidates to TR-holding Mormons.

I stand corrected, and I apologize for my error.

I admire your willingness to admit you were incorrect - but you really illustrate the point being made here by the initial article - the "rational reasons" that were spouted by the church leaders and prop 8 supporters are not accurate. There are no rational reasons for the proposition that are not rooted in, "The Prophet asked us to support it."

[Indy Coug]

I had more than a casual exchange with both of them, and the last word I would ever use to describe them is cheery. Dour comes to mind.

Probably a function of the company they had to keep.

[wuapinmon]

How much longer until Mrs. Tim gets back in town? Sheesh!

Out of bounds, sir.

[Tim]

I agree on the first bolded point. I don't like that part of the culture either but I think it's changing. And from what I've read (I'm a long ways from California) this was more the exception than the norm.

On the second point are you saying that I acted like them? I'm getting mixed messages on this one. I never questioned your faithfulness or testimony. I was merely correcting a false statement you made. I would not have donated to Prop 8 and I probably would have voted no (not 100% sure on this) so if you think I'm questioning your faith then I guess I'm questioning mine as well.

At the very least you set up a divisive "me vs. you" scenario in which I've got my head in the sand and you've got your head out of the sand. There are some of us in the church who idealistically don't want to accept and believe that the church would actually wish for things to happen the way things happened with Prop 8. To bully those people doesn't help them get back to a place in which they feel comfortable belonging to the community that supports something they disagree with.

[Tim]

I've met both of them as well and I barely had enough of an exchange to formulate an opinion of them other than they smiled and shook my hand and seemed to have a generally cheery demeanor.

If you're going to insult me, at least get a little more creative.

LOL! Yes, Indy, Bruce R. McConkie was cheery.

[Indy Coug]

LOL! Yes, Indy, Bruce R. McConkie was cheery.

That's based my personal interaction with him during a dinner when he flew out to Saudi Arabia with his wife. My family and I sat next to him. He was kind, warm and cheerful. My siblings and I sang a song as part of a brief program after the meal. Afterwards, he and his wife came up to us and personally thanked us for the song (as lame as it was).

It is a fond memory because it was my first ever personal interaction of the Apostle of the Lord.

Apparently he must've left after my meeting with him and went back to his hotel and strapped on a steel toe boot and kicked some stray cats his personal secretary had especially scrounged up for him, but I didn't get to see that happen.

[Flystripper]

What I got out of the letter was that we shouldn't spout offensive and indefensible arguments against gays and lesbians. We should leave that to the brethren in Salt Lake.

Well played!

[Mormon Red Death]

I haven't followed Red Sox's posts but reflexively admire him because he uses the name Red Sox. How much can really be wrong with such a person?

Is that a picture of Tommy Lasorda? I hate Tommy Lasorda.

[smokymountainrain]

I've only met two apostles in my life -- Boyd K. Packer and Bruce R. McConkie. You remind me of both of them.

BTW, that's not a compliment.

And non-seq has a ton of credibility here because he never says a negative word regarding the church - so if he's going to insult an apostle, the shoe must fit.

[wuapinmon]

Dammit, people, football has started again. WTF?

[Moliere]

You don't get to talk about Mrs. Tim. That kind of joke is reserved for people who are more than just casual acquaintances of mine, and that definitely doesn't include people who've recently insulted me. For example, I would never make a joke that referenced Mrs. Indy right now, not while this spat is ongoing.

Out of bounds, sir.

The joke wasn't about Mrs. Tim but if you took offense to her somewhat unrelated inclusion in the joke then I'm sorry and will try to keep it more civil.

At the very least you set up a divisive "me vs. you" scenario in which I've got my head in the sand and you've got your head out of the sand. There are some of us in the church who idealistically don't want to accept and believe that the church would actually wish for things to happen the way things happened with Prop 8. To bully those people doesn't help them get back to a place in which they feel comfortable belonging to the community that supports something they disagree with.

You aren't above being corrected and telling you your head is in the sand is not bullying.

[CardiacCoug]

I think Tim would be surprised to learn that I am no fan of Prop. 8. In particular, I don't like non-California LDS involvement and financial support of the proposition. As mentioned above, I personally think the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people choose their mate, their ceremony, and all the terms of the contract they're entering.

So, in a twist of irony, Tim latched on to an anecdote I shared and ripped me to shreds when I may be one of his only allies with regard to Prop. 8. Again, I apologize for my mistake.

Yeah, CUF is overwhelmingly pro Prop 8 -- it's pretty much you and Tim against everybody else. Good call.

Nothing new here, but just for the record: Prop 8 is a huge embarrassment and black eye for the Church. Just when the Church is starting to make some headway in shedding it's racist and polygamist past, we somehow decide to relabel ourselves ourselves in the public eye as "The Church that hates gay people." I don't get it.

There are no rational reasons for being against gay marriage -- the letter writer is correct. Gay people are already living together and having sex. They aren't going to all of a sudden turn straight if we prevent them from getting married. A gay married couple is a closer approximation to the "God-ordained institution of the family" than gay single people could ever be.

I honestly don't understand why we as a Church aren't overwhelmingly PRO gay marriage. We should want people to be monogamous and committed to each other for the long term. It's a good thing.

[Tim]

That's based my personal interaction with him during a dinner when he flew out to Saudi Arabia with his wife. My family and I sat next to him. He was kind, warm and cheerful. My siblings and I sang a song as part of a brief program after the meal. Afterwards, he and his wife came up to us and personally thanked us for the song (as lame as it was).

It is a fond memory because it was my first ever personal interaction of the Apostle of the Lord.

Apparently he must've left after my meeting with him and went back to his hotel and strapped on a steel toe boot and kicked some stray cats his personal secretary had especially scrounged up for him, but I didn't get to see that happen.

Bruce R. McConkie's defiant publication of Mormon Doctrine makes him almost single-handedly responsible for the massive growth in Mormon fundamentalism over the last 50 years. He may have smiled at you when you sang a him, but the fact remains that he did considerable damage to the Church, and he did so in open and brazen defiance to the members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12.

[Flystripper]

Spare us the drama queen crap, Tim. If you're that close to walking out on the church, that's all on you and no one else.

Not the church.

Not whoever was behind the Prop 8 atrocities, real or imagined.

Not CUF members.

Not members of the GOP.

Not CB members.

You.

Get a freaking grip.

As one who has walked out I would agree that walking out is always on the walker. It is their feet after all. Sure there are things that motivate the walker but ultimately it is the decision of the walker to put one foot in front of the other...so to speak.