Ensign Peak Advisors

[Mormon Red Death]

Just curious--what proportion of tithing and donations do you suppose is itemized? What proportion comes from the US?

when I was financial secretary my ward there were 15 families that made up about 80-90% of tithing (it was around a million dollars a year) I'm pretty sure all of those 15 itemized. But my experience is limited.

[Mormon Red Death]

I find the bolded part problematic.

Why? not for profits need to show societal value. Its standard for NFPs like Hospitals and Health Insurers. Why shouldn't a charity demonstrate it provides value?

[All-American]

Why? not for profits need to show societal value. Its standard for NFPs like Hospitals and Health Insurers. Why shouldn't a charity demonstrate it provides value?

Mostly, because it's not a charity-- it's a church.

It does provide a range of humanitarian services, but that is not its primary mission, its primary expense, or the reason most members contribute tithing.

[tooblue]

Just because the leaders don't appear to be getting rich doesn't make them good stewards. Btw no one is saying they aren't doing ANY charitable work. It's evident they are doing some. It's the scale that bothers people. Additionally yes, even people who don't even give to the church should have a say and the reason is because:

1. They church doesn't pay taxes.
2. The charitable donations that are given lower the taxes of the people giving them (thus lowering the tax base)

Thus they should have to have to prove their social value.

Pursuant to all this
I've long said that one of the main problems of the church is that its filled with "yes" men. They would probably benefit from an ombudsman. Someone not affiliated that can give them good advice about how their decisions are perceived

The evidence points to them being particularly good stewards. That's a fact, supported by the evidence, not the conjecture laid out in the 60 minutes program. I also pointed to the scale which doesn't even scratch the surface of the churches efforts. Calls for the church to do more (to somehow financially save the world) ring hollow. Just throw money at the problem—is that the right course. No, we both know it is not. They do more—much more. Again, I know exactly where my fast offerings go. I know and my family directly benefits from how my tithing is used.

Damn straight I am a yes man—yes, I have faith. Yes, I have faith in myself, to strive to be different and not follow the crowd—to be my own person, to believe according to the dictates of my own conscience and to do my best to be a good disciple of Christ.
No, society does not get a say, just as I don't get a say in what you do with your bank roll. Prove their social value? Good gravy Are you a socialist? In regards to the bolded part, who cares how the church is perceived. To suggest that can somehow be controlled is foolishness.

[Northwestcoug]

The evidence points to them being particularly good stewards.

100% agree. They have made a killing on their porfolio!

[tooblue]

What? I have no clue what you are saying here. I think you are trying to find offense and/or a complaint about religion where none is intended.

I said that they are not equipped to handle court involved therapy and they are not. They do not have the skills and training for it. For example, I'm not sure any of them are involved with the AFCC and are AFCC informed. To be fair, a lot of therapists are not equipped to handle court involved therapy and high conflict divorce dynamics.

The point is, you have no idea where any of the therapists that work for LDS social services were trained or what school they attended. None of the ones I know went to BYU, or any LDS church affiliated school to receive their masters. Not one. I suspect many you have encountered did not received their masters from BYU—if you live and practice law in Utah I suspect several got their degree from the University of Utah or ...?

So, what you are saying is: all counselling and therapy programs en masse in all of North America (and Europe) are inadequate in your estimation. But what degree in psychotherapy, counselling or social work have you received in order to make that determination? Perhaps you have a degree. That would be awesome and impressive for a lawyer IMO. But it doesn't change the fact you made a sweeping generalization which was delivered in speaking exclusively about LDS Social Services employed therapists and counsellors. I don't think that is wise and it is demonstrative of bias.

[Goatnapper'96]

My take. The church knew what it was doing (meaning trying to hide the details of the fund). They are using the lawyers as an excuse. The church doesn’t spend enough on charity (IMO) but they spend a lot and a lot more than they are given credit for. You can’t fix many problems by throwing money at them (sorry democrats, but it’s true) and church knows this. You need to change behavior and culture and generations of thought to fix poverty and other ills of the world. Give a man a fish…

Why do you think they should do more?

I don't know enough about how much they do or what they do worldwide to develop an opinion.

[MartyFunkhouser]

The point is, you have no idea where any of the therapists that work for LDS social services were trained or what school they attended. None of the ones I know went to BYU, or any LDS church affiliated school to receive their masters. Not one. I suspect many you have encountered did not received their masters from BYU—if you live and practice law in Utah I suspect several got their degree from the University of Utah or ...?

So, what you are saying is: all counselling and therapy programs en masse in all of North America (and Europe) are inadequate in your estimation. But what degree in psychotherapy, counselling or social work have you received in order to make that determination? Perhaps you have a degree. That would be awesome and impressive for a lawyer IMO. But it doesn't change the fact you made a sweeping generalization which was delivered in speaking exclusively about LDS Social Services employed therapists and counsellors. I don't think that is wise and it is demonstrative of bias.

I am saying they are inadequate en masse for court involved therapy. It is not something that is taught in their curriculum and something that must be learned through practice and continuing education. In fact, it is more than just LDS Social Services that has this problem. It is a wide spread problem within the therapy community.

Here is a great article on the problem.
https://www.lyngreenbergphd.com/wp-c...ing-Expert.pdf

The AFCC also has a ton of resources about this and training in court involved therapy.
https://www.afccnet.org/Portals/0/Co...apy%20AFCC.pdf

You are looking for offense and attacks on religion where none is intended.

By the way, LDS Social Services typically get out when they find out there is court involvement. Unfortunately, a lot of time the damage is already done. For example, convincing a wife that her husband looking at consensual adult pornography must mean that he is a danger to their children.

[tooblue]

I am saying they are inadequate en masse for court involved therapy. It is not something that is taught in their curriculum and something that must be learned through practice and continuing education. In fact, it is more than just LDS Social Services that has this problem. It is a wide spread problem within the therapy community.

Here is a great article on the problem.
https://www.lyngreenbergphd.com/wp-c...ing-Expert.pdf

The AFCC also has a ton of resources about this and training in court involved therapy.
https://www.afccnet.org/Portals/0/Co...apy%20AFCC.pdf

You are looking for offense and attacks on religion where none is intended.

By the way, LDS Social Services typically get out when they find out there is court involvement. Unfortunately, a lot of time the damage is already done. For example, convincing a wife that her husband looking at consensual adult pornography must mean that he is a danger to their children.

This thread is in the foyer, a religion forum. You made an accusation against LDS employed therapists and counsellors that can be construed as an attack. You have now expanded your explanation to excoriate all therapists and counsellors. Those facts are indisputable.

My wife is currently in school working towards her masters in psychotherapy at a non-LDS affiliated university. They have an entire course on the subject. It is also addressed in other courses.

Maybe, it is not the therapists and counsellors, but the court systems and lawyers who are the bigger part of the problem?

[tooblue]

This thread is in the foyer, a religion forum. You made an accusation against LDS employed therapists and counsellors that can be construed as an attack. You have now expanded your explanation to excoriate all therapists and counsellors. Those facts are indisputable.

My wife is currently in school working towards her masters in psychotherapy at a non-LDS affiliated university. They have an entire course on the subject. It is also addressed in other courses.

Maybe, it is not the therapists and counsellors, but the court systems and lawyers who are the bigger part of the problem?

I would add, it sounds like you (MartyFunkhouser) are a very conscientious advocate for your clients. That can only be a good thing. My aim is to defend what I see as unfair, and I am sorry for the tone of my comments that can be construed as overly aggressive.

[Eddie]

I am saying they are inadequate en masse for court involved therapy. It is not something that is taught in their curriculum and something that must be learned through practice and continuing education. In fact, it is more than just LDS Social Services that has this problem. It is a wide spread problem within the therapy community.

Here is a great article on the problem.
https://www.lyngreenbergphd.com/wp-c...ing-Expert.pdf

The AFCC also has a ton of resources about this and training in court involved therapy.
https://www.afccnet.org/Portals/0/Co...apy%20AFCC.pdf

You are looking for offense and attacks on religion where none is intended.

By the way, LDS Social Services typically get out when they find out there is court involvement. Unfortunately, a lot of time the damage is already done. For example, convincing a wife that her husband looking at consensual adult pornography must mean that he is a danger to their children.

To be fair - if you asked me, most therapists (at least initially) aren't prepared to handle court-involved cases or cases involving families from the child welfare world. My degree was from the U of U, with a child welfare emphasis, and we really didn't delve into the court aspect - or how to handle it when you've got parents making allegations against each other.

Any preparation I have for those issues comes from nearly 30 years of working in the child welfare field and having an understanding of how the system works.

You're talking about some pretty specialized background knowledge that most people don't have. Just like when I've been in a courtroom with what I assume was a very knowledgeable attorney, but an attorney who had no business representing anyone on a child welfare case. I was embarrassed for the guy as the judge walked him around in circles. But I won't assume all attorneys can't handle child welfare or family court cases - just that I wouldn't want one without that experience if that's what I'm going to them for.

[frank ryan]

What? I have no clue what you are saying here. I think you are trying to find offense and/or a complaint about religion where none is intended.

I said that they are not equipped to handle court involved therapy and they are not. They do not have the skills and training for it. For example, I'm not sure any of them are involved with the AFCC and are AFCC informed. To be fair, a lot of therapists are not equipped to handle court involved therapy and high conflict divorce dynamics.

I don't do a lot of couples therapy and would not want see court ordered clients in that context.

Court-ordered or other leveraged therapy is less effective than people volunteering to get help without being leveraged to.