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  • Sorry to bring up Prop. 8,

    but can someone help me unpack this?

    http://en.fairmormon.org/Latter-day_..._Proposition_8

    Were Church members told how to vote and commanded to work for passage of Proposition 8?

    Church members were not told how to vote on Proposition 8. As stated in the letter and the satellite broadcast, members were asked to “do all you can to support” the passage of Proposition 8. There was no commandment for members to work on the campaign. Support was organized at a local level and volunteers' experiences varied according to area, need and campaign leaders. Members were asked to support Proposition 8 ("We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment..."), but not commanded. While prophets may ask people to do some things, the actual “doing” is left to the individual and their agency. It is their choice to determine whether to do what the prophet asks and how much to actually do. Church leaders are aware that members within the church come from different backgrounds, have different life experiences, and different ideologies. To make an ultimatum on this issue would unnecessarily alienate people.
    First, it's obvious that this isn't an official publication or position of the LDS church. Let's go ahead and get that out of the way. So, leaving aside the obvious disagreements we can raise about "official" LDS policy, can we focus on the point-of-view put forth by this article and how it fits into the larger framework of apologetics?

    My questions:

    It really seems to be splitting hairs to suggest that a prophet asking something is different from a commandment. This paragraph implies to me that something is a "commandment" only when no agency is involved. Am I reading this point-of-view correctly?

    According to the article, can someone be a faithful LDS and still oppose Prop. 8? I'm thinking specifically of LDS Temple-Recommendation questions based on "sustaining" LDS leadership and affiliations with groups whose teachings/practices are contrary to those accepted by the LDS church.
    "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
    -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

  • #2
    Is not wearing more than one earring a commandment? What about R-rated movies? What about campaigning for Prop 8?
    Everything in life is an approximation.

    http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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    • #3
      The last sentence doesn't work. It wasn't an ultimatum and was unnecessarily alienating.
      "Nobody listens to Turtle."
      -Turtle
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Solon View Post
        but can someone help me unpack this?

        http://en.fairmormon.org/Latter-day_..._Proposition_8



        First, it's obvious that this isn't an official publication or position of the LDS church. Let's go ahead and get that out of the way. So, leaving aside the obvious disagreements we can raise about "official" LDS policy, can we focus on the point-of-view put forth by this article and how it fits into the larger framework of apologetics?

        My questions:

        It really seems to be splitting hairs to suggest that a prophet asking something is different from a commandment. This paragraph implies to me that something is a "commandment" only when no agency is involved. Am I reading this point-of-view correctly?

        According to the article, can someone be a faithful LDS and still oppose Prop. 8? I'm thinking specifically of LDS Temple-Recommendation questions based on "sustaining" LDS leadership and affiliations with groups whose teachings/practices are contrary to those accepted by the LDS church.
        Awe, the oft asked question concerning "commandment" vs "counsel".

        While I respect those whose faith has them believing every word spoken by a general authority or every policy issued by "the church" is from God (popular by with Dof'ers on CB) , it puts them in an unenviable (my opinion) position of having to defend everything that is said in black and white terms, otherwise the basis of their faith falls apart.

        Thus, if you don't agree with say the honor code. That person by definition has to label all others of not believing GA's receive inspiration. It seems such people have trouble functioning in the gospel without knowing everything is black and white.

        President Hinckley in a talk once said, speaking to members, we should stop taking ourselves so seriously. While he can't come out and say, every chruch policy hasn't been given to us by God, I think he would say so in private. God has given them the authority to act for him, that is not the same as telling them what to do in every instance.

        As far as sustaining. I may not agree with everything Bronco does, but I can certainly at the same time support him as the coach and in the end agree that he has the right to make the decision for the team whether I agree or not. If I openly go out and lobby and work for his firing, I would say I don't sustain him anymore.
        Last edited by byu71; 04-21-2010, 07:25 AM.

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        • #5
          People who did not support Prop. 8, including those like my BIL who wrote articles that undercut some of the "legal" arguments in its favor, were not subjected to Church discipline, other than the withering condemnation of certain Cougarboarders, and they remain in good standing with the Church. That wouldn't be the case had they gone against [at least certain] other commandments. If one takes a binary view of commandments, then the Prop. 8--request? recommendation? whatever-- wouldn't rise to that level.

          But I think commandments can be placed on a spectrum, with certain things so serious and grave that they merit expulsion, while others get little more than a shake of the head. It's a bit fuzzy, but I agree that a strong urging from the President of the Church rises to the level of a lower-case commandment

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          • #6
            Originally posted by byu71 View Post
            Awe, the oft asked question concerning "commandment" vs "counsel".

            While I respect those whose faith has them believing every word spoken by a general authority or every policy issued by "the church" is from God, it puts them in an unenviable (my opinion) position of having to defend everything that is said in black and white terms, otherwise the basis of their faith falls apart.

            Thus, if you don't agree with say the honor code. That person by definition has to label all others of not believing GA's receive inspiration. It seems such people have trouble functioning in the gospel without knowing everything is black and white.

            President Hinckley in a talk once said, speaking to members, we should stop taking ourselves so seriously. While he can't come out and say, every chruch policy hasn't been given to us by God, I think he would say so in private. God has given them the authority to act for him, that is not the same as telling them what to do in every instance.

            As far as sustaining. I may not agree with everything Bronco does, but I can certainly at the same time support him as the coach and in the end agree that he has the right to make the decision for the team whether I agree or not. If I openly go out and lobby and work for his firing, I would say I don't sustain him anymore.
            Would you mind editing the above to include a reference to CB in there? For some reason, this post feels incomplete without it.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by I.J. Reilly View Post
              Would you mind editing the above to include a reference to CB in there? For some reason, this post feels incomplete without it.
              Done, I also managed to get Dof'er in there too.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                Awe, the oft asked question concerning "commandment" vs "counsel".
                http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...9&postcount=57
                "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Solon View Post
                  but can someone help me unpack this?

                  http://en.fairmormon.org/Latter-day_..._Proposition_8



                  First, it's obvious that this isn't an official publication or position of the LDS church. Let's go ahead and get that out of the way. So, leaving aside the obvious disagreements we can raise about "official" LDS policy, can we focus on the point-of-view put forth by this article and how it fits into the larger framework of apologetics?

                  My questions:

                  It really seems to be splitting hairs to suggest that a prophet asking something is different from a commandment. This paragraph implies to me that something is a "commandment" only when no agency is involved. Am I reading this point-of-view correctly?

                  According to the article, can someone be a faithful LDS and still oppose Prop. 8? I'm thinking specifically of LDS Temple-Recommendation questions based on "sustaining" LDS leadership and affiliations with groups whose teachings/practices are contrary to those accepted by the LDS church.
                  It definitely is a bit of doublespeak. "It isn't a commandment...but if you feel ok NOT doing what a Prophet says...then I guess do whatever you want...it is totally up to you whether you want to obey the Prophet."

                  That being said, I addressed this issue directly with my Bishop during my temple recommend interview. I remember posting about it on cougarguard. He said that my stance on Prop 8 was not an issue and that was the end of it. The topic never came up again and I received my recommend.
                  Fitter. Happier. More Productive.

                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    I missed that, thanks. I liked what you had to say.

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