Where is the Garden of Eden?

[clackamascoug]

Those that voted Missouri, how do you reconcile the evidence that seems somewhat irrefutable that human life evolved in Africa and branched out from there, inhabiting the America's much later than even Europe and Asia?

Is it OK for believing LDS to say the prophet hits on some things and misses on some things?

p.s. I don't want to start a debate on this, as I'm not qualified. I'm just curious what the logic is--whether to reject science, whether there are legitimate counters to the scientific evidence, or some other reason.

There may be a logical explanation, and the following may or not be true, but it does bridge the gap between the Einsteins, and Bro & Sis Creation.

What is Matter? Organized or Unorganized.

The "scriptures" say that the Savior says: Here is matter unorganized. To me the Saviors perception of unorganized matter is the key to his purposes.

I can go out to my garage, and say the garage is a mess, let me organize it. I can move stuff around, and be satisfied that the mess was cleaned up and reorganized, with exactly the same things that were there in the first place. Nothing new was added, and nothing was thrown away.

We know the the Earth is billions of years old. The real question is, how times has it been reorganized, and how many times has it been recycled. Maybe the cycle of Ice Age to normal it part of the cleansing process.

We also know that the Earths crust floats, and with a good jolt, like a pole flip, it can wham bam into itself and make mountains and such. Land mass can change from time to time. Frankly if I made a planet, I'd like to change it up every so often, just for kicks.

So... who's to say whether or not people lived on the planet during one of it's previous iterations. I think it s good bet that people have been coming and going from this and other places from the eons of time.

So, The Garden of Eden. It's possible that during the most previous reorganization, the Lord planted some people here, gave them instructions, and set the passion play in order, and as always, gave a way to those Spirits that need bodies a way to accomplish the fact. Through the millions of times the passion play has been executed, its been found that sin is introduced and that a Savior must be provided. Business as usual.

To limit the iterations and scenes played out on the planet as an only one time event, is as myopic as saying that man descended from monkey's, when its just as likely that the skeletons found are mostly like debris from some previous school bus that got lost 2 billion years ago.

Going forward we also believe the Earth will change at least two more times. At the end of the this dispensation, it will burn as stubble and reorganize itself into a Terrestial Sphere. At the end of the Terrestial period, it will transform into a Celestial Sphere, and be moved to another location. I'd like to see how big the equipment will be to tow the planet to its new home.

So the question is begged - Does the Lord use equipment? Sure, the Urim and Thummin is probably the best example. I'm sure there may be other things that would seem as outlandish to us as a cell phone would to George Washington. As a techno buff, I can't wait to see perfected communication equipment.

[falafel]

I don't think I was accusing you of anything except that sometimes your tone may make people have a hard time understanding how you can call something someone believes as dumb and not reflect negatively on that person is all. And I'll be the first to admit that tone is very difficult to interpret on the interwebs.

Besides I said you may have insulted and I also said I believed you that you meant no offense.

I'll back Surfah up on this. I didn't take offense, but I can see how woot's remark that perhaps some "intellectual pondering" might be in order could be read as "if you stop and think about it, you'll realize how stupid it sounds."

Whether or not that's true is not the point. Its that it wasn't the softest way to call into question someone's beliefs.

[woot]

There may be a logical explanation, and the following may or not be true, but it does bridge the gap between the Einsteins, and Bro & Sis Creation.

What is Matter? Organized or Unorganized.

The "scriptures" say that the Savior says: Here is matter unorganized. To me the Saviors perception of unorganized matter is the key to his purposes.

I can go out to my garage, and say the garage is a mess, let me organize it. I can move stuff around, and be satisfied that the mess was cleaned up and reorganized, with exactly the same things that were there in the first place. Nothing new was added, and nothing was thrown away.

We know the the Earth is billions of years old. The real question is, how times has it been reorganized, and how many times has it been recycled. Maybe the cycle of Ice Age to normal it part of the cleansing process.

We also know that the Earths crust floats, and with a good jolt, like a pole flip, it can wham bam into itself and make mountains and such. Land mass can change from time to time. Frankly if I made a planet, I'd like to change it up every so often, just for kicks.

So... who's to say whether or not people lived on the planet during one of it's previous iterations. I think it s good bet that people have been coming and going from this and other places from the eons of time.

So, The Garden of Eden. It's possible that during the most previous reorganization, the Lord planted some people here, gave them instructions, and set the passion play in order, and as always, gave a way to those Spirits that need bodies a way to accomplish the fact. Through the millions of times the passion play has been executed, its been found that sin is introduced and that a Savior must be provided. Business as usual.

To limit the iterations and scenes played out on the planet as an only one time event, is as myopic as saying that man descended from monkey's, when its just as likely that the skeletons found are mostly like debris from some previous school bus that got lost 2 billion years ago.

Going forward we also believe the Earth will change at least two more time. At the end of the this dispensation, it will burn as stubble and reorganize itself into a Terrestial Sphere. At the end of the Terrestial period, it will transform into a Celestial Sphere, and be moved to another location. I'd like to see how big the equipment will be to tow the planet to its new home.

So the question is begged - Does the Lord use equipment? Sure, the Urim and Thummin is probably the best example. I'm sure there may be other things that would seem as outlandish to us as a cell phone would to George Washington. As a techno buff, I can't wait to see perfected communication equipment.

[wuapinmon]

There may be a logical explanation, and the following may or not be true, but it does bridge the gap between the Einsteins, and Bro & Sis Creation.

What is Matter? Organized or Unorganized.

The "scriptures" say that the Savior says: Here is matter unorganized. To me the Saviors perception of unorganized matter is the key to his purposes.

I can go out to my garage, and say the garage is a mess, let me organize it. I can move stuff around, and be satisfied that the mess was cleaned up and reorganized, with exactly the same things that were there in the first place. Nothing new was added, and nothing was thrown away.

We know the the Earth is billions of years old. The real question is, how times has it been reorganized, and how many times has it been recycled. Maybe the cycle of Ice Age to normal it part of the cleansing process.

We also know that the Earths crust floats, and with a good jolt, like a pole flip, it can wham bam into itself and make mountains and such. Land mass can change from time to time. Frankly if I made a planet, I'd like to change it up every so often, just for kicks.

So... who's to say whether or not people lived on the planet during one of it's previous iterations. I think it s good bet that people have been coming and going from this and other places from the eons of time.

So, The Garden of Eden. It's possible that during the most previous reorganization, the Lord planted some people here, gave them instructions, and set the passion play in order, and as always, gave a way to those Spirits that need bodies a way to accomplish the fact.

To limit the iterations and scenes played out on the planet as an only one time event, is as myopic as saying that man descended from monkey's, when its just as likely that the skeletons found are mostly like debris from some previous school bus that got lost 2 billion years ago.

Did that make sense?

It makes sense, but it doesn't jibe with the observable data from sediment and volcanic rock formation that we can observe.

Through the millions of times the passion play has been executed, its been found that sin is introduced and that a Savior must be provided. Business as usual.

Whoa, now we're talking! Nietzsche, the Eternal Return, Plato, Empedocles, the Phoenix, Deleuze, Barenaked Ladies, the Kalachakra, Jung, Abraxas, Schopenhauer, hell, even dung beetles, and the Cylons; Ahhh!!!! So, what you're saying is that God doesn't progress; even He keeps making the same mistakes.

"'En mi fin está mi principio,' grabado en un papel, no tiene sentido, pero grabado en un anillo, ya es otra cosa." --Jorge Luis Borges

[clackamascoug]

It makes sense, but it doesn't jibe with the observable data from sediment and volcanic rock formation that we can observe.



Whoa, now we're talking! Nietzsche, the Eternal Return, Plato, Empedocles, the Phoenix, Deleuze, Barenaked Ladies, the Kalachakra, Jung, Abraxas, Schopenhauer, hell, even dung beetles, and the Cylons; Ahhh!!!! So, what you're saying is that God doesn't progress; even He keeps making the same mistakes.

"'En mi fin está mi principio,' grabado en un papel, no tiene sentido, pero grabado en un anillo, ya es otra cosa." --Jorge Luis Borges

A jaded intellectual my presume that God makes mistakes. A dogmatic evil hater would say that God likes to procreate as much as the next guy, and that necessitates the continuation of a successful Plan of Salvation.

[wuapinmon]

A jaded intellectual my [sic] presume that God makes mistakes. A dogmatic evil hater would say that God likes to procreate as much as the next guy, and that necessitates the continuation of a successful Plan of Salvation.

Or I could just read the Scriptures while paying attention and realize that Alma 34:10 crushes your idea. I'm many things: pedantic, prideful, abrasive, but I'm not jaded.

[jay santos]

There may be a logical explanation, and the following may or not be true, but it does bridge the gap between the Einsteins, and Bro & Sis Creation.

What is Matter? Organized or Unorganized.

The "scriptures" say that the Savior says: Here is matter unorganized. To me the Saviors perception of unorganized matter is the key to his purposes.

I can go out to my garage, and say the garage is a mess, let me organize it. I can move stuff around, and be satisfied that the mess was cleaned up and reorganized, with exactly the same things that were there in the first place. Nothing new was added, and nothing was thrown away.

We know the the Earth is billions of years old. The real question is, how times has it been reorganized, and how many times has it been recycled. Maybe the cycle of Ice Age to normal it part of the cleansing process.

We also know that the Earths crust floats, and with a good jolt, like a pole flip, it can wham bam into itself and make mountains and such. Land mass can change from time to time. Frankly if I made a planet, I'd like to change it up every so often, just for kicks.

So... who's to say whether or not people lived on the planet during one of it's previous iterations. I think it s good bet that people have been coming and going from this and other places from the eons of time.

So, The Garden of Eden. It's possible that during the most previous reorganization, the Lord planted some people here, gave them instructions, and set the passion play in order, and as always, gave a way to those Spirits that need bodies a way to accomplish the fact. Through the millions of times the passion play has been executed, its been found that sin is introduced and that a Savior must be provided. Business as usual.

To limit the iterations and scenes played out on the planet as an only one time event, is as myopic as saying that man descended from monkey's, when its just as likely that the skeletons found are mostly like debris from some previous school bus that got lost 2 billion years ago.

Going forward we also believe the Earth will change at least two more times. At the end of the this dispensation, it will burn as stubble and reorganize itself into a Terrestial Sphere. At the end of the Terrestial period, it will transform into a Celestial Sphere, and be moved to another location. I'd like to see how big the equipment will be to tow the planet to its new home.

So the question is begged - Does the Lord use equipment? Sure, the Urim and Thummin is probably the best example. I'm sure there may be other things that would seem as outlandish to us as a cell phone would to George Washington. As a techno buff, I can't wait to see perfected communication equipment.

Your doctrines are so 1970. The church doesn't teach this stuff anymore.

[pellegrino]

A jaded intellectual my presume that God makes mistakes. A dogmatic evil hater would say that God likes to procreate as much as the next guy, and that necessitates the continuation of a successful Plan of Salvation.

or it might be that this is what we mean by eternal progression, you make mistakes, but because you're grounded in the right principles those mistakes can be overcome. Interesting ideas clacky.

[ERCougar]

There may be a logical explanation, and the following may or not be true, but it does bridge the gap between the Einsteins, and Bro & Sis Creation.

What is Matter? Organized or Unorganized.

The "scriptures" say that the Savior says: Here is matter unorganized. To me the Saviors perception of unorganized matter is the key to his purposes.

I can go out to my garage, and say the garage is a mess, let me organize it. I can move stuff around, and be satisfied that the mess was cleaned up and reorganized, with exactly the same things that were there in the first place. Nothing new was added, and nothing was thrown away.

We know the the Earth is billions of years old. The real question is, how times has it been reorganized, and how many times has it been recycled. Maybe the cycle of Ice Age to normal it part of the cleansing process.

We also know that the Earths crust floats, and with a good jolt, like a pole flip, it can wham bam into itself and make mountains and such. Land mass can change from time to time. Frankly if I made a planet, I'd like to change it up every so often, just for kicks.

So... who's to say whether or not people lived on the planet during one of it's previous iterations. I think it s good bet that people have been coming and going from this and other places from the eons of time.

So, The Garden of Eden. It's possible that during the most previous reorganization, the Lord planted some people here, gave them instructions, and set the passion play in order, and as always, gave a way to those Spirits that need bodies a way to accomplish the fact. Through the millions of times the passion play has been executed, its been found that sin is introduced and that a Savior must be provided. Business as usual.

To limit the iterations and scenes played out on the planet as an only one time event, is as myopic as saying that man descended from monkey's, when its just as likely that the skeletons found are mostly like debris from some previous school bus that got lost 2 billion years ago.

Going forward we also believe the Earth will change at least two more times. At the end of the this dispensation, it will burn as stubble and reorganize itself into a Terrestial Sphere. At the end of the Terrestial period, it will transform into a Celestial Sphere, and be moved to another location. I'd like to see how big the equipment will be to tow the planet to its new home.

So the question is begged - Does the Lord use equipment? Sure, the Urim and Thummin is probably the best example. I'm sure there may be other things that would seem as outlandish to us as a cell phone would to George Washington. As a techno buff, I can't wait to see perfected communication equipment.

Yikes...I don't know where to start with this. I must not be understanding you here.

We don't have any monkey/man fossils that are 2 billion years old. We don't see any evidence of "false starts". We see a fairly continuous line from monkey ancestor to australopithicans to homo erectus to us. (Correct me on the details here, woot.)

Are you saying there were multiple simultaneous Garden of Edens, and that Jackson County, MO was just one of them? That's an interesting idea that I hadn't thought of, and may work better to fit the fossil record.

Please don't tell me you're claiming that the landmasses broke up after the Garden of Eden?

[woot]

Yikes...I don't know where to start with this. I must not be understanding you here.

We don't have any monkey/man fossils that are 2 billion years old. We don't see any evidence of "false starts". We see a fairly continuous line from monkey ancestor to australopithicans to homo erectus to us. (Correct me on the details here, woot.)

Are you saying there were multiple simultaneous Garden of Edens, and that Jackson County, MO was just one of them? That's an interesting idea that I hadn't thought of, and may work better to fit the fossil record.

Please don't tell me you're claiming that the landmasses broke up after the Garden of Eden?

Yeah, I was more inclined to direct him to timecube.com than to actually analyze any of that, but you are correct.

There were no false starts, there were no do-overs. We see a planet devoid of life, transforming into one with prokaryotes, then eukaryotes, then sexually-reproducing eukaryotes, then simple life forms, then ever more complex life forms branching out and evolving from their more primitive ancestors. All this is punctuated by 5 (with a 6th ongoing) mass extinction events in which the majority of lifeforms then living were wiped out, followed by great diversification of life to fill the niches left open. It's all perfectly consistent with evolution, and all perfectly inconsistent with revelation.

[Blueintheface]

I understood the reference, but I think this implicitly hearkens back to another discussion where you're awfully critical of others' beliefs or thoughts that don't necessarily jive with yours.

Has this become the CB equivalent of loOser?

[TripletDaddy]

This is one of those questions that I have never seen answered in a way that resonates with me. I am well aware of the Cleon Skousen theories and from a brief skim of this thread, it appears that we have some subscribers here (I don't know the answer one way or the other so maybe Brother Skou is correct on this one, btw).

I do see a bit of a SeattleUte effect going on here. A really good but tough question is asked and the focus is quickly shifted to "you sound like a huge jerk" as opposed to "really good question...to tell you the truth, I don't know the answer to that." I think we do that sometimes here, but no worries.

I am interested in any theories on this issue so to the extent any of the JaCoMo voters have thoughts, I'd love to read them. Like I said previously, I honestly don't know and have no good answer for this question.

[SeattleUte]

This is one of those questions that I have never seen answered in a way that resonates with me. I am well aware of the Cleon Skousen theories and from a brief skim of this thread, it appears that we have some subscribers here (I don't know the answer one way or the other so maybe Brother Skou is correct on this one, btw).

I do see a bit of a SeattleUte effect going on here. A really good but tough question is asked and the focus is quickly shifted to "you sound like a huge jerk" as opposed to "really good question...to tell you the truth, I don't know the answer to that." I think we do that sometimes here, but no worries.

I am interested in any theories on this issue so to the extent any of the JaCoMo voters have thoughts, I'd love to read them. Like I said previously, I honestly don't know and have no good answer for this question.

Anyway, this is not a tough question. No educated person should literally believe in the Garden of Eden story. I consder belief in a 6,000 year old earth or not, or literal belief in Adam and Eve vs. evolution to be a signal charcteristic of an eduated person.

But the Adam and Eve stor IS a wonderful and beautifully written myth. It is extremely easy to spot manifold allegorical meanings in it.

The Garden of Eden story was apparently derived from ancient myths originating in the fertile crescent near the Tigris and Euphrates river system. This region happened to be blessed with way more than its fair share of domesticable plants and animals. Not coincidentally, in the West this is the place where the first cities emerged. Perhaps there was a time when city dwellers looked back with longing at a more innocent time when humans ran around naked and gathered. So the answer is that the Garden of Eden was near the Tigris and Euphrates river system.

Personally, I think you can see evolution in the story. "Knowledge of good and evil" is precisely what happened when humans' brains grew large enough to reason, and human history advanced and cluture matured to a point where poets, philosophers and theologians started pondering good and evil, right and wrong, etc. Animals live in an innocent state much like Adam and Eve.

[creekster]

:
Personally, I think you can see evolution in the story. "Knowledge of good and evil" is precisely what happened when humans' brains grew large enough to reason, and human history advanced and cluture matured to a point where poets, philosophers and theologians started pondering good and evil, right and wrong, etc. Animals live in an innocent state much like Adam and Eve.

I agree with this (to a degree). Knowledge of good and evil seems ot me to be a sort of code for self-awareness. That's why we are different than animals. It is our consciousness. And it is the ulitmate self-awareness of our selves as sentient, procreative beings that God bestows when we realize we are naked (in the story). It is a wonderful descritpion of the progression to our state of consciousness.

[ERCougar]

I agree with this (to a degree). Knowledge of good and evil seems ot me to be a sort of code for self-awareness. That's why we are different than animals. It is our consciousness. And it is the ulitmate self-awareness of our selves as sentient, procreative beings that God bestows when we realize we are naked (in the story). It is a wonderful descritpion of the progression to our state of consciousness.

Well, sure. I think most of us accept that sort of explanation. But that doesn't deal with the statements identifying Jackson County as the physical location, statements that we haven't exactly filed under "Descendants of Cain et al".