Honest question re BYU's course

[pellegrino]

If we were talking about BYU-Idaho, I would agree. BYU in Provo, though, is not so easily categorized. On the one hand, you have some top-notch progams at BYU and the academic reputation is solid. I didn't have any trouble whatsoever being taken seriously for graduate school because I came from BYU. I got into every program I applied to, including the very liberal UMASS.

Academically, BYU students have nothing to be ashamed about.

Likewise, BYU faculty come from credible, highly-regarded graduate programs and (occasionally) professional careers.

In some respects, though, BYU has an anti-intellectual bent. The failure to resolve an academic freedom problem from the mid-90s is part of this, as is the insistence that the President be a Church official.

I've spent some time with students and faculty from Baylor, and I think that's about as close of a comparison to BYU as can be made (although I think BYU is both a little more academically rigorous and a little more religious).

Interestingly, some of the schools in the fabled SEC are something of a haven for religiously-oriented faculty, but no one is making an issue of that!

I agree with this, and I'd add that the serious problems BYU has with academic freedom are nearly all found in the colleges of humanities and fine arts and their ancillary activities. The powers that be have no qualms with biology profs teaching evolution, but when it comes to showing a somewhat controversial film, play, or work of art the community is hamstrung by the collective prudery.

[jay santos]

I think Solon is correct; academic freedom issues area concern in some departments at BYU. I only attended BYU for one year but I can still recall being startled when my freshman biology professor began the section on evolution with a pleas not to be turned into the honors office for teaching it, explaining that he did have a testimony but that anyone that wanted to be a biologist had to understand the area.

OTOH, the reason BYU stands out, I think, is because it is so large and so many of its students are so successful. No conservative and strictly university is larger (AFAIK). This fact, when combined with the notoriety of the Church for past practices (please SU, we know, you can refrain) and present social positions (and again, SU) makes some intellectual quarters much more sensitive than they should be.

The notion that any religious person should have second thoughts about his or her approach to religion based on express or even implicit criticism by Stanford or Cal is, frankly, amusing.

I'm quite certain the course content of BYU's freshman Biology class is the exact same as any typical university.

[creekster]

I'm quite certain the course content of BYU's freshman Biology class is the exact same as any typical university.

I think it was too. But why should a professor have to beg not to be turned into to the religion police in order to teach it? I think the education I received was fine. (also bear in mind that it was a long time ago when I was there)

[byu71]

I agree with this, and I'd add that the serious problems BYU has with academic freedom are nearly all found in the colleges of humanities and fine arts and their ancillary activities. The powers that be have no qualms with biology profs teaching evolution, but when it comes to showing a somewhat controversial film, play, or work of art the community is hamstrung by the collective prudery.

I think in some ways the environment is there much the same way as the environment for political parties. The extreme elements are your most active screamers and yellers. You have to cator to the base, although that base represents a minority of the whole. That extreme element has a tendency to push the majority out. I never thought I would say this, but I could someday declare myself an independent.

Back to the analogy. If BYU didn't put out this personna, the active extremes would holler loud an long. I will bet GA's get letters from fundamentalist members and wish they could just them them to shut the frick up. They can't though because these people are there most devouted followers.

Napper and I have for instance agreed on Bronco. A lot of his schtick is playing to the hard core base.

Note: As an example, I will bet if you put a poll out to BYU fans, alumni, students and faculty and it indeed was secret, over 50% would be just fine with doing away with the honor code as it is now instituted.

[Sleeping in EQ]

I think in some ways the environment is there much the same way as the environment for political parties. The extreme elements are your most active screamers and yellers. You have to cator to the base, although that base represents a minority of the whole. That extreme element has a tendency to push the majority out. I never thought I would say this, but I could someday declare myself an independent.

Back to the analogy. If BYU didn't put out this personna, the active extremes would holler loud an long. I will bet GA's get letters from fundamentalist members and wish they could just them them to shut the frick up. They can't though because these people are there most devouted followers.

Napper and I have for instance agreed on Bronco. A lot of his schtick is playing to the hard core base.

Note: As an example, I will bet if you put a poll out to BYU fans, alumni, students and faculty and it indeed was secret, over 50% would be just fine with doing away with the honor code as it is now instituted.

There is truth in what you are saying, 71. This is a big reason why the caffeine thing continues on BYU campus.

[UtahDan]

I agree with this, and I'd add that the serious problems BYU has with academic freedom are nearly all found in the colleges of humanities and fine arts and their ancillary activities. The powers that be have no qualms with biology profs teaching evolution, but when it comes to showing a somewhat controversial film, play, or work of art the community is hamstrung by the collective prudery.

Fortunately it is math, hard science, business and accounting concepts that most inform a person's world view. Thank goodness nothing has to be sacrificed in those areas.

I myself took a few humanities oriented classes at BYU. Philosophy and whatever the entry level poli-sci class is called stand out in my mind. Both of my classes has very heavy doses of how an understanding of the gospel helps us to understand how we are supposed to view issues. Maybe it was just my professors, but it is hard to imagine any other traditional university allowing a class to be taught from the perspective of trying to confirm one view point and refute others.

I remember distinctly sitting in philosophy and over and over concepts would be taught and someone would say "but that can't be right because the gospel teaches x." But I never heard anyone say "that makes a lot of sense, doesn't that sort of refute what Elder such and such said?" No one would ever have the guts to do that.

[pelagius]

I think you guys are vastly underrating the number of important religious universities where the unique religious outlook and culture colors the cirriculm. This is a fair description of the Ivys in general (and it is perfect description of HBS).

[byu71]

Fortunately it is math, hard science, business and accounting concepts that most inform a person's world view. Thank goodness nothing has to be sacrificed in those areas.

I myself took a few humanities oriented classes at BYU. Philosophy and whatever the entry level poli-sci class is called stand out in my mind. Both of my classes has very heavy doses of how an understanding of the gospel helps us to understand how we are supposed to view issues. Maybe it was just my professors, but it is hard to imagine any other traditional university allowing a class to be taught from the perspective of trying to confirm one view point and refute others.

I remember distinctly sitting in philosophy and over and over concepts would be taught and someone would say "but that can't be right because the gospel teaches x." But I never heard anyone say "that makes a lot of sense, doesn't that sort of refute what Elder such and such said?" No one would ever have the guts to do that.

Which goes to my above point. Probably more than half the class was thinking "that doesn't make sense" and yet no one would have the guts or possibly it isn't not the guts, but a sense of "what does it matter".

I think CB is a small insight into BYU. I will bet most of the readers of that board are much more moderate than the dominant posting. That is because the system is set up prevent as much as possible to present a "image" problem.

[creekster]

I think you guys are vastly underrating the number of important religious universities where the unique religious outlook and culture colors the cirriculm. This is a fair description of the Ivys in general (and it is perfect description of HBS).

Too bad we dont know someone teaching at an ivy who could explain that for us.

Cal has a sort of religion that colors all of its curriculum. They just dont worship in chapels.

[il Padrino Ute]

Who gives a shit what the pot-smoking, military-hating, Birkenstock-wearing, Bon Iver-listening, enviro-extremist, Marxists at Cal think?

I say BYU should give the bird to Cal and Stanford every chance possible. Screw 'em.

[byu71]

Too bad we dont know someone teaching at an ivy who could explain that for us.

Cal has a sort of religion that colors all of its curriculum. They just dont worship in chapels.

Good point. My guess is that at Stanford and Cal. those that belong to the progressive faith are given wider birth and credit for their opinions than those that belong to the conservatie faith.

Probably art depicting the Savior being peed on is more appreciated at Stanford and Berkley than such art would be at BYU. Perhaps that is the cultural difference being spoken of.

[UtahDan]

I think you guys are vastly underrating the number of important religious universities where the unique religious outlook and culture colors the cirriculm. This is a fair description of the Ivys in general (and it is perfect description of HBS).

Places where you can lose your job or be put out of school over a view point you advocate? I don't doubt you are right, but there is a big difference between being colored by a view and being completely dominated by a view.

I'm not saying BYU should be otherwise, I just think people are in denial about what BYU is.

[byu71]

I don't know if this is the appropriate thread to add this, but I thought about it the other day and just thought about it again. I don't want to start a new thread. Mine aren't highly successful.

Since I started in this business in 1982, I have had 11 Branch managers. Two were very bad. Two I have considered excellent.

The two that have been excellent. Idaho St. and Weber St. grads. The Weber ST. grad. finally quit because of all the questionable ethical things that were going on with the Harvard grads in our firm back on Wall St.

The two really bad managers. Stanford MBA, Washinton BA.

I do know what a good manager is and what a bad one is. I will admit my sample size may be so small it doesn't mean anything.

[creekster]

Places where you can lose your job or be put out of school over a view point you advocate?

I assure you that a professor at Cal holding highly conservative viewpoints would keep his head down just as much if not more so than a professor at BYU who held very liberal viewpoints. The difference is the Cal professor might not lose his job (although he could be impacted in some pretty significant ways) but otherwise it is about the same.

Bear in mind (get it?) I live near Cal, I like Cal, my wife graduated from Cal and I would love to see one of my kids go there. But if you dont think I am right about this, you are in denial about what the climate is at that august instutiion.

I do not think this is true of Stanford, btw. Can anyone say Condaleeza Rice?

[YOhio]

Can anyone say Condaleeza Rice?

Yes! Many people can.