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  • The Official World War II Thread

    As there is an Official Civil War Thread, I thought I would start one for WWII.

    The first question for the thread might be who gets the blame for the war. The seemingly obvious answer would be Hitler, but could the allies have prevented a war?
    Last edited by Flattop; 05-27-2011, 11:41 AM.
    Col. Klink: "Staff officers are so clever."
    Gen. Burkhalter: "Klink, I am a staff officer."
    Col. Klink: "I didn't mean you sir, you're not clever."

  • #2
    Originally posted by Flattop View Post
    As there is an Official Civil War Thread, I thought I would start one for WWII.

    The first question for the thread might be who gets the blame for the war. The obvious answer would be Hitler, but could the allies have prevented a war?
    I would point out that, like your friend suggested, an attempt to pin down fault on a single element appearing in the years before the war started without considering decades or even hundreds of years of context is probably not fit for an intelligent or in-depth discussion about the topic. Blaming Hitler is easy and obvious. But what led them to that point? What happened in the 1700s and 1800s and pre-1930s to cause someone like Hitler to get power in the first place? What caused the allocation and alignment of land throughout Europe and the political configurations that caused one nation to support or lay down for Germany and another nation to oppose it? What events and decisions in Asia led to the nearly unchecked power of the Japanese in the 50 years prior to 1941?

    I'm more fascinated with the context and configurations in the time before the war than with the actual stats of battles or the movements of troops. I'd love to read or participate in a discussion that focuses on the former more than the latter.
    Visca Catalunya Lliure

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Flattop View Post
      As there is an Official Civil War Thread, I thought I would start one for WWII.

      The first question for the thread might be who gets the blame for the war. The obvious answer would be Hitler, but could the allies have prevented a war?
      I think identifying the causes is more interesting (and potentially useful) than identifying the blame. Also, were the responses to the various events and actions the appropriate ones?

      The subject that endlessly fascinates me about WWII is the apparent embrace, by the peoples of Japan and Germany (especially Germany) of militarism and fascism, and the use of such evil means to advance their causes. These were highly educated cultures of long standing and deep traditions. I'm not interested in judging but in understanding the phenomenon.
      “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
      ― W.H. Auden


      "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
      -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


      "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
      --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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      • #4
        I would say that lingering French bloodlust over the terrible terms of the Franco-Prussian War led them to impose harsh penalties at Versailles that helped nurture bitter Teutonic fruit during the Depression.

        But, there are hundreds of thousands of causes, all important.
        "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Flattop View Post
          As there is an Official Civil War Thread, I thought I would start one for WWII.

          The first question for the thread might be who gets the blame for the war. The obvious answer would be Hitler, but could the allies have prevented a war?
          I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was the South and their slave-holding ways.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Clark Addison View Post
            I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was the South and their slave-holding ways.
            I hope the Cubs do poorly this year.
            "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tim View Post
              I would point out that, like your friend suggested, an attempt to pin down fault on a single element appearing in the years before the war started without considering decades or even hundreds of years of context is probably not fit for an intelligent or in-depth discussion about the topic. Blaming Hitler is easy and obvious. But what led them to that point? What happened in the 1700s and 1800s and pre-1930s to cause someone like Hitler to get power in the first place? What caused the allocation and alignment of land throughout Europe and the political configurations that caused one nation to support or lay down for Germany and another nation to oppose it?
              I have edited the original to say "The seemingly obvious answer would be Hitler. . . ." For while I said obvious, did not necessarily mean it was the correct answer.

              The historian A. J. P. Taylor wrote in his book The Origins of the Second World War that there was a major difference in how the First and Second World Wars are treated. With WWI, the primary focus is on the origins of the war, and very little space, comparatively, is given to the fighting that followed. The opposite is the case with WWII as most historians accept Hitler's guilt and give the most space to the fighting.

              Taylor argued that the origins of WWII are much more complex than is generally accepted. Things may have changed some since Taylor wrote his book in 1961, but the majority of space is still given to the campaigns and battles than to the origin of the war.

              In Herman Wouk's novel The Winds of War, there is a scene where one character says he is reading Mein Kampf to better understand the war that had just broken out. Another character then argues that if he truly wants to understand Germany and the war, he should read several different historians and philosophers which he then lists.

              Many Americans find it difficult to understand how the German people could give so much power to an individual they find almost comical. To the Germans, Hitler had the fingertip touch, but Americans have a tough time seeing the appeal. Certainly there are significant differences between American and German culture and to understand how Hitler came to power, we need to think more like Germans of the first half the 20th century than as Americans of the late 20th and early 21st centuries.

              The origins of the Third Reich and the Second World War are indeed complex. But I think it is safe to say that Hitler understood German culture and had the skills to use certain aspects of that culture to achieve his ends.
              Last edited by Flattop; 05-27-2011, 12:01 PM.
              Col. Klink: "Staff officers are so clever."
              Gen. Burkhalter: "Klink, I am a staff officer."
              Col. Klink: "I didn't mean you sir, you're not clever."

              Comment


              • #8
                As for the Allies, the disarmament terms of the Versailles Treaty should have preserved the peace if strictly enforced against Germany until at least 1934. As it was, in 1935 France alone could have invaded and reoccupied Germany almost without serious fighting. In 1936 there should still have been no doubt of France's overwhelmingly superior strength.

                In 1938, with the knowledge of their weakness, the German high command did their utmost to restrain Hitler from his invading Austria and Czechoslovakia. In the year after the appeasement at Munich, the German Army, though still weaker in trained reserves than the French Army, approached its full efficiency. Thus Britain and France passed on the best chances to stop Hitler only to accept more difficult circumstances in 1939 over the question of Poland.

                Following 1936, Hitler grew stronger, and the Allies comparatively weaker, with every passing year. Germany could not have fought a war before 1938, and yet the Allies allowed Hitler to abrogate the Versailles and Locarno treaties by rearming. Hitler took a huge gamble in occupying the demilitarized Rhineland, and if the Allies had responded with even the threat of force, Hitler would have had to withdraw his forces. Had this happened, anti-Nazi groups in Germany may have been able to overthrow the Hitler government.

                In 1938, when Hitler menaced Czechoslovakia, Germany could ill afford to fight the Czechs in the east and France and Britain in the west. The Czech's had a quality army with excellent defensive terrain, and Hitler was not as strong as he would be a year later when he invaded Poland, a country with a weaker army and no defensible terrain. But by giving Hitler what he said he wanted in order to avoid war, the allies instead made a greater war inevitable.

                In the end, Hitler is responsible for his aggressions which led to war, IMO. As inadvisable as the heavy reparations might have been, along with the war guilt clause and the dictated peace of Versailles, none of these things justified anything Hitler did. But Hitler might have been stopped short of global, catastrophic war if the Allies had strictly enforced the disarmament terms of the Versailles Treaty or, failing that, had responded to Hitler's early violations -- or even Mussolini's invasion of Ethiopia -- with even just a credible threat of force.
                Col. Klink: "Staff officers are so clever."
                Gen. Burkhalter: "Klink, I am a staff officer."
                Col. Klink: "I didn't mean you sir, you're not clever."

                Comment


                • #9
                  I don't recall who said this around that time, but I have always enjoyed it: The British take their weekends in the country, and Hilter takes his countries on the weekends.
                  The Holy War is over, and Utah won - Federal Ute

                  Think of how stupid the average American is. Then remember that half are even dumber than that. - George Carlin

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                  • #10
                    The question and discussion thus far seem to completely ignore the role of Japan in the "world" war.

                    Just looking at a map - isn't it true that Japan was much more aggressive than Germany in their plans for adding to their empire? Certainly before Hitler began his two front war.

                    I see Japan and Germany has coming from two very different backgrounds, as far as what they wanted and didn't have, when it comes to why the war began.

                    What would've happened had Germany stayed put (either due to Hitler being stopped politically or by force). Would Japan have gone ahead with their plans? Would they have been more aggressive or less? Would they have attacked the US or backed down on their empire building efforts in Asia?

                    I know that no one can know these things, but I often find myself intrigued by the what if's.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                      I hope the Cubs do poorly this year.
                      Too late! They already have!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think Japan would not have been checked by anyone so long as they did not threaten any colonial possessions.

                        Hong Kong, Singapore and India by the British

                        Vietnam by the French

                        Phillipines and Hawaii by US.

                        If they stayed out of those countries I believe the world would have turned a blind eye to what they were doing in Manchuria.
                        The Holy War is over, and Utah won - Federal Ute

                        Think of how stupid the average American is. Then remember that half are even dumber than that. - George Carlin

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Clark Addison View Post
                          Too late! They already have!
                          I get the feeling that 2024 will be the Cubs year!
                          "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            NSFW

                            [YOUTUBE]D4JI6MyoIXk&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
                            "We should remember that one man is much the same as another, and that he is best who is trained in the severest school."
                            -Thucydides

                            "Study strategy over the years and achieve the spirit of the warrior. Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men."
                            -Miyamoto Musashi

                            Si vis pacem, para bellum

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                            • #15
                              Taken today





                              "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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