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  • #16
    Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
    And yes, for white babies of healthy middle to upper class mothers, adoption is a great alternative.
    I'm curious why it's not for other groups. I have such little experience with adoption that I'll claim ignorance, but I see people adopting all different kinds of babies from inner city to foreign born.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Moliere View Post
      I'm curious why it's not for other groups. I have such little experience with adoption that I'll claim ignorance, but I see people adopting all different kinds of babies from inner city to foreign born.
      I don't know why it is--I'm guessing that more adoptive parents are white and there are concerns about raising mixed-race households? Still, despite your anecdotal experience, it's well-documented that there are many more black children waiting for adoption than white or even mixed-race, even to the extent that fees are often lower if a couple is willing to adopt a black child.
      At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
      -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
        I don't know why it is--I'm guessing that more adoptive parents are white and there are concerns about raising mixed-race households? Still, despite your anecdotal experience, it's well-documented that there are many more black children waiting for adoption than white or even mixed-race, even to the extent that fees are often lower if a couple is willing to adopt a black child.
        Is that true of infants, or just any child in the foster care system? I had thought that there was more demand than supply for infants of any race, but there were a lot of older kids that had a hard time being adopted, a disproportionate amount of them black. I admit I am not close to the situation, and could be wrong.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Clark Addison View Post
          Is that true of infants, or just any child in the foster care system? I had thought that there was more demand than supply for infants of any race, but there were a lot of older kids that had a hard time being adopted, a disproportionate amount of them black. I admit I am not close to the situation, and could be wrong.
          I would assume it's true of both, although I guess I haven't looked at the age breakdown. I'm not sure it makes a difference on the discussion. Older foster children either come from unadopted infants or parental/familial breakdowns, which I assume would be higher in cases of unwanted pregnancies.
          At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
          -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Clark Addison View Post
            Is that true of infants, or just any child in the foster care system? I had thought that there was more demand than supply for infants of any race, but there were a lot of older kids that had a hard time being adopted, a disproportionate amount of them black. I admit I am not close to the situation, and could be wrong.
            This is more the case.

            There are a LOT of children of all races, who are older in foster care, waiting to be adopted. However, minority children tend to be over-represented. And people just aren't lining up to adopt older children. In Utah, at least, this is complicated by the fact that the youngest children with the fewest emotional/behavioral problems are typically adopted by their foster parents. So the children that are waiting to be adopted tend to be 7-8 years old and older AND tend to have more severe emotional and behavioral issues.

            A couple of years ago I met with the person overseeing LDS Family Services adoption services in Utah. She indicated to me that LDSFS had more than 700 approved adoptive homestudies of families waiting to adopt along the Wasatch Front - but that they simply didn't have the number of children being given up for adoption to meet that demand and the AVERAGE wait for a family was 7 years.

            I suspect that eventually the supply might outpace the demand - but at this point in time I don't think it does. A bigger issue might be children with obvious developmental or physical handicaps. But it isn't an issue (at least right now) finding enough adoptive families for newborn infants of any color.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
              I would assume it's true of both, although I guess I haven't looked at the age breakdown. I'm not sure it makes a difference on the discussion. Older foster children either come from unadopted infants or parental/familial breakdowns, which I assume would be higher in cases of unwanted pregnancies.
              Very few of the older children in foster care started as infants in foster care. Especially in the past year or two - the state has gotten pretty good at placing kids with adoptive families. And there is no shortage of families willing to adopt children 5 and younger.

              Most of the older children in foster care came into foster care as older children. And then just stayed there.

              It is true that the are in foster care due to some familial/parental breakdown - but I think it would be a false premise to assume that this means the children were unwanted. It might mean that the parents were not capable to parent to begin with and shouldn't have had children. It might mean that the parents got wrapped up in drugs and became bad parents over time. It's also fairly common to have a step-parent come along who might not have the same feelings for the child/children as the bio-parent. But having met with many of these parents myself - you would be wrong to assume that the children were unwanted from birth.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Eddie View Post
                This is more the case.

                There are a LOT of children of all races, who are older in foster care, waiting to be adopted. However, minority children tend to be over-represented. And people just aren't lining up to adopt older children. In Utah, at least, this is complicated by the fact that the youngest children with the fewest emotional/behavioral problems are typically adopted by their foster parents. So the children that are waiting to be adopted tend to be 7-8 years old and older AND tend to have more severe emotional and behavioral issues.

                A couple of years ago I met with the person overseeing LDS Family Services adoption services in Utah. She indicated to me that LDSFS had more than 700 approved adoptive homestudies of families waiting to adopt along the Wasatch Front - but that they simply didn't have the number of children being given up for adoption to meet that demand and the AVERAGE wait for a family was 7 years.

                I suspect that eventually the supply might outpace the demand - but at this point in time I don't think it does. A bigger issue might be children with obvious developmental or physical handicaps. But it isn't an issue (at least right now) finding enough adoptive families for newborn infants of any color.
                In Utah, I don't doubt that's the case, but Utah is obviously an anomaly wrt demand for children, as well as supply of minority children. Is that the case nationally?

                Originally posted by Eddie View Post
                Very few of the older children in foster care started as infants in foster care. Especially in the past year or two - the state has gotten pretty good at placing kids with adoptive families. And there is no shortage of families willing to adopt children 5 and younger.

                Most of the older children in foster care came into foster care as older children. And then just stayed there.

                It is true that the are in foster care due to some familial/parental breakdown - but I think it would be a false premise to assume that this means the children were unwanted. It might mean that the parents were not capable to parent to begin with and shouldn't have had children. It might mean that the parents got wrapped up in drugs and became bad parents over time. It's also fairly common to have a step-parent come along who might not have the same feelings for the child/children as the bio-parent. But having met with many of these parents myself - you would be wrong to assume that the children were unwanted from birth.
                I didn't mean to imply that all older foster children were unwanted originally. I'm just arguing that a child is more likely to end up in the foster system if they were the result of an unwanted pregnancy. (I'm also defining familial breakdown rather widely, and it would obviously include many factors outside of unfit mothers)
                At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                  There are so many people in the world that can't have children that want to have them. Adoption is a great alternative and one that prevents mothers who don't want to be mothers from having their only option being abortion.
                  I have a couple of cousins who were adopted, and know of several others adopted by friends. I sense that the majority of them are happy and well-adjusted. I do know a couple of kids who really struggle emotionally with the knowledge that their birth mother gave them away. I think for some, it is a source of pain feeling that they weren't loved enough by their birth mothers.

                  I know someone else who has spent about 20 years being a foster parent. He really tries hard to instill in those kids his sense of morality. He tries to make a positive difference. He even adopted one. He has seen his share of disappointments, and most kids seem to not progress much from the typical foster kid cycle.

                  I say this because there is a potential emotional cost to adoption. Even my cousins who seem happy now, struggled a lot with their self worth their teen years. For a while, one of them came close to breaking down and leaving her family. I want to be clear, I really do think that most adoptions are a net benefit for both the kids and the parents. I would absolutely encourage adoption for those women who are opposed to abortion. But I don't think it's the best option for most pregnant women who don't want their children.

                  There is an emotional cost to carrying a baby to term and putting it up for adoption. Just like there's a cost for abortion. I would much rather have the woman who is going to deal with those costs to be free to make those decisions, since she will deal with the consequences.
                  Last edited by Northwestcoug; 05-13-2014, 09:12 AM.
                  "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                  "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                  - SeattleUte

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                  • #24
                    I tried watching the video, but couldn't do it.

                    I think I understand the arguments in favor of abortion, but in the end, the thought of aborting a child as a means of birth control makes me incredibly sad.
                    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

                    "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                      In Utah, I don't doubt that's the case, but Utah is obviously an anomaly wrt demand for children, as well as supply of minority children. Is that the case nationally?
                      I've had a lot of neighbors and co-workers trying to adopt. They look all over the US and have a hard time getting selected by birth mothers. The other issue that I've observed is quite often the birth mother changes her mind or the birth father decides to get involved.

                      If all abortions were suddenly stopped in the US, there might be an over supply issue. But right now in my anecdotal experience, there isn't enough supply in the US to meet demand.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Green Monstah View Post
                        I tried watching the video, but couldn't do it.

                        I think I understand the arguments in favor of abortion, but in the end, the thought of aborting a child as a means of birth control makes me incredibly sad.
                        I made no effort to watch the video and I am openly perplexed by anyone who would. I just miss the days when stories of abortion/justifications on behalf of it were made reasonable. This example hit me because there was no effort to explain it other than the pregnancy was inconvenient even if the genesis of it was total irresponsibility. Somewhere along the line those advocating for Pro-Choice decided there was no longer a need to not be so openly offensive about abortion. I maintain that is not a good thing.
                        Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
                        -General George S. Patton

                        I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
                        -DOCTOR Wuap

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                        • #27
                          I'm awaiting statistics on infant adoption by race to go with these anecdotal experiences. I'm open to the possibility that there is all black babies find welcoming homes, but I'm skeptical.

                          Even so, this is a bit of a detour from the point, as it ignores a host of other arguments on the issue, ranging from pragmatic to moral.

                          As for the video, I didn't watch it either. I wonder if any of the same people who are disgusted by the abortion procedure have watched an execution performed.
                          At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                          -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                            As for the video, I didn't watch it either. I wonder if any of the same people who are disgusted by the abortion procedure have watched an execution performed.
                            I didn't watch it and I'm also on record being against the death penalty in all cases. I don't think I'll ever get to a point like NWCoug when he said this:

                            Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                            I would absolutely encourage adoption for those women who are opposed to abortion. But I don't think it's the best option for most pregnant women who don't want their children.
                            I understand there's an emotional toll, but I guess as someone that believes in the Mormon Gospel I'd choose life and struggles for a child/teenager over not allowing a life at all. It's just my opinion, but I'd hope that women who don't even want the child would carry it to term and give it up for adoption.

                            I'll also add that abortion by choice has some very ugly consequences, most of which are not seen in the US. I posted an article a couple years ago about a country (China? India?) that had an abnormal ratio of male/female babies. Essentially parents were aborting the females at higher rates as most parents wanted a male baby first. So allowing (or not prosecuting) abortions under the guise that it's a woman's choice was likely to have some profound and lasting effects on women's rights into the future.

                            I still think that proper education and easier access to birth control could drastically reduce the need for abortions....but that's just my uninformed opinion.
                            "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                              I don't know why it is--I'm guessing that more adoptive parents are white and there are concerns about raising mixed-race households? Still, despite your anecdotal experience, it's well-documented that there are many more black children waiting for adoption than white or even mixed-race, even to the extent that fees are often lower if a couple is willing to adopt a black child.
                              True.
                              "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
                              - Goatnapper'96

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                                I didn't watch it and I'm also on record being against the death penalty in all cases. I don't think I'll ever get to a point like NWCoug when he said this:

                                I understand there's an emotional toll, but I guess as someone that believes in the Mormon Gospel I'd choose life and struggles for a child/teenager over not allowing a life at all. It's just my opinion, but I'd hope that women who don't even want the child would carry it to term and give it up for adoption.

                                I'll also add that abortion by choice has some very ugly consequences, most of which are not seen in the US. I posted an article a couple years ago about a country (China? India?) that had an abnormal ratio of male/female babies. Essentially parents were aborting the females at higher rates as most parents wanted a male baby first. So allowing (or not prosecuting) abortions under the guise that it's a woman's choice was likely to have some profound and lasting effects on women's rights into the future.

                                I still think that proper education and easier access to birth control could drastically reduce the need for abortions....but that's just my uninformed opinion.
                                I understand where you're coming from. As an aside, I would like to get to a place where abortion only happens rarely. But as you said, that's going to take a huge coordinated effort that emphasizes contraception and other measures.

                                Having said that, I think most research suggests that the consequences of abortion are relatively mild when compared to the effects of delivering unwanted children (putting aside your legitimate concerns in China). It might help to focus on women outside of the church, where the stigma of 'near murder' and consequences for sin are not as prevalent. I had an OB/GYN in med school, who claimed matter of factly that he would rather deal with the moral consequences of abortion himself than force a teen girl to carry an pregnancy to term. Back then I bristled at what I thought was his callousness to an extremely important moral dilemma. But as I've thought of that, I have more or less come around to his side. Kids make stupid mistakes all the time. If there isn't a background belief of abortion as sin, I tend to think that the costs of a teen aborting a baby would be less than the consequences of carrying a baby to term, even if it was given up for adoption. The potential of stunting a girl's education, career, and self-esteem is very real. We try to help our kids through mistakes they've made, in order to minimize their effects once they've left the house. It probably sounds very callous, but teen pregnancies are mistakes, and in most instances carrying a baby to term will curtail a life's trajectory for that girl.

                                Incidentally, I agonized over questions like these while I was still an active believer. Before I made my exit, I did come to the conclusion that assisting a teen with an abortion was not sin, and that I could live with that on my conscience. Interestingly, although Mrs. NWC is pro-choice, she said 'no' when we played the hypothetical game of 'would you have an abortion' now that she isn't a believer. It does carry significant potential downsides. I do agree that abortion is not an easy decision. It shouldn't be viewed as a primary contraceptive choice (I haven't watched the video Goat posted). But in some instances it is a 'better' choice than carrying a baby to term.
                                "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                                "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                                - SeattleUte

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