Lance Armstrong is a dope

[pelagius]

Whoa. Are they stripping him of his titles based solely off the testimony of two witnesses promised immunity for merely testifying? If so, I agree with you. That is unfair.

The USADA claims to have 12 witnesses that observed Armstrong's PED use.

[Mormon Red Death]

per soft jazz coug on utefans:

The short of it, yes I do believe that Lance doped. However the USADA proceedings have been curious at best, scandalous at worst.

From everything I've seen, they are breaking their own rules and making apparent sweetheart deals with some cyclists.

The first question is how do they strip wins from over 8 years ago when their own statute of limitations prevents them from doing so?

Secondly, how does Armstrong defend himself when he doesn't even know who exactly his accusers are, and what they've said? USADA has claimed they are protecting them from intimidation.

Thirdly, how can this testimony even be considered reliable when the former teammates testifying are either convicted dopers themselves, or are likely receiving amnesty for what they did or are currently doing? I can get that some deals might need to be worked out to take down a doping ring that is currently active, but Armstrong is retired from cycling. Bruyneel is still out there, but this isn't really about him.

Fourth, USA Cycling and the International Cycling Union (UCI) have asked USADA for the evidence, which they refuse to provide to them, how can a legal proceeding from an organization supported by tax payer money have fair proceedings while operating in a black box? Basically the service that is supposed to be there for these two organizations is refusing to let these organizations see what is going on.

There are of course arguments behind supporting all of these things too. Armstrong has been known to try to intimidate witnesses and despite being retired still wields a lot of power in the cycling community (see the refusal by everyone at the Vuelta to even publicly comment on what has happened).

So, while I personally believe Armstrong doped, there is something fishy going on at USADA too.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised actually, since USADA and USA Cycling and UCI have been butting heads, if the UCI either appeals their decision, or ignores it outright. This is far from over.

[SteelBlue]

Does anyone who has followed Lance's career really believe he'd stop fighting because he's "had enough of all this"? The guy who beat cancer, grinded out 7 TdF wins and has been relentless as a protector of his own legacy now wants to quit fighting what would likely be the final challenge to that legacy? It's just my opinion, but stopping the fight is way out of character for him. Stopping because he knows the evidence against him is finally overwhelming makes much more sense. If by stopping he also prevents the public release of the evidence then it makes even more sense. Just judging by my facebook news feed his plan is working pretty well already.

[TripletDaddy]

The USADA claims to have 12 witnesses that observed Armstrong's PED use.

Agreed. Do they claim to have any other evidence?

[old_gregg]

Agreed. Do they claim to have any other evidence?

blood tests from 2009 and 2010 "fully consistent" with doping. i'm not sure what that means. elevated red blood cell count? traces of the epo itself? it's not like the usada has any authority to compel a private, foreign organization to do anything anyway.

[scottie]

blood tests from 2009 and 2010 "fully consistent" with doping. i'm not sure what that means. elevated red blood cell count? traces of the epo itself? it's not like the usada has any authority to compel a private, foreign organization to do anything anyway.

Where is everyone getting their info about the 2009 and 2010 samples and the 12 witnesses? I did a search in the espn.com headline story but didn't find those references.

EDIT: I just found the 2009 and 2010 samples reference (I was looking at the wrong espn.com story), but still looking for the 12 witnesses note.

[TripletDaddy]

Where is everyone getting their info about the 2009 and 2010 samples and the 12 witnesses? I did a search in the espn.com headline story but didn't find those references.

EDIT: I just found the 2009 and 2010 samples reference (I was looking at the wrong espn.com story), but still looking for the 12 witnesses note.

The 12 Witnesses part is just after the title page and introduction.

[scottie]

The 12 Witnesses part is just after the title page and introduction.

[scottie]

Where is everyone getting their info about the 2009 and 2010 samples and the 12 witnesses? I did a search in the espn.com headline story but didn't find those references.

EDIT: I just found the 2009 and 2010 samples reference (I was looking at the wrong espn.com story), but still looking for the 12 witnesses note.

Nevermind, I found some non-espn stories, as well as 3D pointing me to the right place.

[Moliere]

blood tests from 2009 and 2010 "fully consistent" with doping. i'm not sure what that means. elevated red blood cell count? traces of the epo itself? it's not like the usada has any authority to compel a private, foreign organization to do anything anyway.

Again, how do you strip titles won before 2005 based on evidence of doping in 2009 and 2010? That's like taking away olympic medals from 2008 because some guy tested positive during the 2012 games even though he was clean (or never had a negative test) during 2008. Seems weird.

I understand what Steelblue is saying, but I wonder if Lance knows they can't strip his titles (he may legally challenge them or claim the statute of limitation has passed) so he's not going to dragged through the mud anymore.

Of course, maybe he cheated, but so did Bonds and he doesn't have an asterisk next to his name.

[dabrockster]

Just leave LA alone!!!

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[TripletDaddy]

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[RC Vikings]

blood tests from 2009 and 2010 "fully consistent" with doping. i'm not sure what that means. elevated red blood cell count? traces of the epo itself? it's not like the usada has any authority to compel a private, foreign organization to do anything anyway.

So they are basing this off of his two comeback years? How stupid would Armstrong have to be to use EPO, during a time when everybody was watching, to ride a race he knew he had little chance of winning and risk everything else. I would like to see what Hinicapie said because I've still never seen a report where an ex-teammate said they saw him Armstrong injecting himself with something. They have said there was pressure from the team to use but nobody physically saw him use. If they are going to do this to Armstrong they might as well take away Indurains also.

[Sullyute]

So they are basing this off of his two comeback years? How stupid would Armstrong have to be to use EPO, during a time when everybody was watching, to ride a race he knew he had little chance of winning and risk everything else. I would like to see what Hinicapie said because I've still never seen a report where an ex-teammate said they saw him Armstrong injecting himself with something. They have said there was pressure from the team to use but nobody physically saw him use. If they are going to do this to Armstrong they might as well take away Indurains also.

You leave Miguel out of this!

[pelagius]

I would like to see what Hinicapie said because I've still never seen a report where an ex-teammate said they saw him Armstrong injecting himself with something.

RC, Hamilton did say that he saw Armstrong inject EPO. Are you looking for others beside Hamilton (maybe you don't find Hamilton credible)?

Asked what he actually witnessed, Hamilton told Pelley, "I saw it in his refrigerator, you know. I saw him inject it more than one time."

"You saw Lance Armstrong inject EPO?" Pelley asked.

"Yeah, like we all did, like I did many, many times," Hamilton said.

"You saw it more than once?" Pelley asked.

"I think I saw it a couple times," Hamilton replied.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18560_162-20064858.html