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  • #46
    Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
    Yeah, and pretty much every member that's ever had a serious question is probably showboating or using their question as a pretext to start chugging Schlitz and looking at the Swimsuit edition without remorse.

    You're a peach, Indy. Good thing the church leadership in deciding to send Jensen and Turley over is a little more sensitive and discerning than you are.
    Sounds like you need to contact the NYT.
    Everything in life is an approximation.

    http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
      Sounds like you need to contact the NYT.
      For agreeing that it was prudent and reasonable of the Church to send Elders Jensen and Turley over to address the Swedish saints? If you're taking more of a hard line than the church leadership on this one, more power to you, brother.

      For thinking that we as a church have not done a good job of addressing controversial topics in correlated materials? Well, good luck fighting that battle.
      Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
      --William Blake, via Shpongle

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
        For agreeing that it was prudent and reasonable of the Church to send Elders Jensen and Turley over to address the Swedish saints? If you're taking more of a hard line than the church leadership on this one, more power to you, brother.

        For thinking that we as a church have not done a good job of addressing controversial topics in correlated materials? Well, good luck fighting that battle.
        No, just all the hyperbolic nonsense about Schlitz and swimsuit porn.
        Everything in life is an approximation.

        http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
          No, just all the hyperbolic nonsense about Schlitz and swimsuit porn.
          Yes, it was hyperbole. So what? I'd like to know what serious point you were making about the motives of the Swedish saints that wanted the meeting. Apparently you feel very confident in saying that something was afoot. What reason do you have for thinking they were being disingenuous? Presumably you have some kind of hypothesis about their motives if you're not taking their explanation at face value. What is it?
          Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
          --William Blake, via Shpongle

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
            Yes, it was hyperbole. So what? I'd like to know what serious point you were making about the motives of the Swedish saints that wanted the meeting. Apparently you feel very confident in saying that something was afoot. What reason do you have for thinking they were being disingenuous? Presumably you have some kind of hypothesis about their motives if you're not taking their explanation at face value. What is it?
            I already stated I believed they wanted additional information and I have no problem with that. My point of contention is how Mattsson portrayed himself in the article as some vastly experienced member who had served a mission and many years of leadership experience in the church and miraculously only became aware of this stuff very recently.

            I served a mission to England just like he did. Brits were always throwing this kind of stuff in my face when I was on my pre-internet mission; but none of it was a surprise because I had already been exposed to this stuff years beforehand. Do I believe for a second he didn't encounter this stuff while tracting 40, 50 or more hours a week? Not bloody likely. I think either he's being disingenuous or Ms. Goodstein decided to paint him as being a little more oblivious than he really was.
            Everything in life is an approximation.

            http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
              I already stated I believed they wanted additional information and I have no problem with that. My point of contention is how Mattsson portrayed himself in the article as some vastly experienced member who had served a mission and many years of leadership experience in the church and miraculously only became aware of this stuff very recently.

              I served a mission to England just like he did. Brits were always throwing this kind of stuff in my face when I was on my pre-internet mission; but none of it was a surprise because I had already been exposed to this stuff years beforehand. Do I believe for a second he didn't encounter this stuff while tracting 40, 50 or more hours a week? Not bloody likely. I think either he's being disingenuous or Ms. Goodstein decided to paint him as being a little more oblivious than he really was.
              I served a mission in France. I remember being shocked when I ran into someone who actually knew that Brigham young was the name of a church leader and not just a football team (he knew nothing else about him.).

              I'm guessing my experience is much more akin to the Swedish one than yours.

              Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
              At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
              -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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              • #52
                Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                I served a mission in France. I remember being shocked when I ran into someone who actually knew that Brigham young was the name of a church leader and not just a football team (he knew nothing else about him.).

                I'm guessing my experience is much more akin to the Swedish one than yours.

                Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
                Yeah seriously. I saw one anti pamphlet in my two years and didn't read it all for fear of losing the spirit. I do simply remember it quoting BY when he supposedly said the moon was populated.

                It doesn't surprise me at all that a European church leader of his tenor wouldn't know much about this stuff. He likely spends very little time on the Internet and very much time traveling around giving speeches to big congregations. He likely never interviews individuals unless they are stake presidents and bishops and its likely those people are afraid to broach the subject with him.

                My mom has been to pretty much every CES ever given including 30 straight years of education week and she has no idea that JS practiced polyandry or used a peep stone in a hat to translate the BoM.
                "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                  Yeah seriously. I saw one anti pamphlet in my two years and didn't read it all for fear of losing the spirit. I do simply remember it quoting BY when he supposedly said the moon was populated.
                  Not just populated, but populated by people looking like this:

                  QuakerOats.jpg

                  It seemed a reasonable hypothesis at the time.
                  Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
                  --William Blake, via Shpongle

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                  • #54
                    I had the same reaction as Indy and Surfah when I read this portion of the article.

                    But when he discovered credible evidence that the church’s founder, Joseph Smith, was a polygamist and that the Book of Mormon and other scriptures were rife with historical anomalies, Mr. Mattsson said he felt that the foundation on which he had built his life began to crumble.
                    I can understand not knowing some of the historical anomalies in the BofM and all that, but you've been on a mission, area authority, etc., and you didn't know Joseph practiced polygamy? What? How is that even possible? It's not like we're talking about seer stones and talismans here.
                    So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MarkGrace View Post
                      I had the same reaction as Indy and Surfah when I read this portion of the article.



                      I can understand not knowing some of the historical anomalies in the BofM and all that, but you've been on a mission, area authority, etc., and you didn't know Joseph practiced polygamy? What? How is that even possible? It's not like we're talking about seer stones and talismans here.
                      The more likely thing is that the media isn't reporting it accurately. He probably didn't know that Joseph Smith married 14-16 year old girls and did it in secret and wrote them letters the way he did.

                      The letters he wrote these girls are just shocking.
                      That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

                      http://twitter.com/SoonerCoug

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by MarkGrace View Post
                        I had the same reaction as Indy and Surfah when I read this portion of the article.



                        I can understand not knowing some of the historical anomalies in the BofM and all that, but you've been on a mission, area authority, etc., and you didn't know Joseph practiced polygamy? What? How is that even possible? It's not like we're talking about seer stones and talismans here.
                        How did I not know it until I was well into law school?
                        Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                          I served a mission in France. I remember being shocked when I ran into someone who actually knew that Brigham young was the name of a church leader and not just a football team (he knew nothing else about him.).

                          I'm guessing my experience is much more akin to the Swedish one than yours.

                          Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
                          Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                          Yeah seriously. I saw one anti pamphlet in my two years and didn't read it all for fear of losing the spirit. I do simply remember it quoting BY when he supposedly said the moon was populated.

                          It doesn't surprise me at all that a European church leader of his tenor wouldn't know much about this stuff. He likely spends very little time on the Internet and very much time traveling around giving speeches to big congregations. He likely never interviews individuals unless they are stake presidents and bishops and its likely those people are afraid to broach the subject with him.

                          My mom has been to pretty much every CES ever given including 30 straight years of education week and she has no idea that JS practiced polyandry or used a peep stone in a hat to translate the BoM.
                          Indy is not talking about exposure to various interesting points in Mormon history as a Saint in Sweden, but about the time Elder Mattson served as a missionary in the UK. Indy cited his experience in the UK, which seems more relevant that anything missionaries might encounter from the French. About the time I served, a missionary was kidnapped in the UK by his girlfriend, creating a lot of good fodder for the tabloid press.
                          Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

                          For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

                          Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
                            The more likely thing is that the media isn't reporting it accurately. He probably didn't know that Joseph Smith married 14-16 year old girls and did it in secret and wrote them letters the way he did.

                            The letters he wrote these girls are just shocking.
                            This has to be the case. Ages, polyandry, etc., I can see. To just not know that Joseph practiced polygamy? I have a hard time believing that one.
                            So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
                              The more likely thing is that the media isn't reporting it accurately. He probably didn't know that Joseph Smith married 14-16 year old girls and did it in secret and wrote them letters the way he did.

                              The letters he wrote these girls are just shocking.
                              Do you know of a source to see these letters?
                              If we disagree on something, it's because you're wrong.

                              "Somebody needs to kill my trial attorney." — Last words of George Harris, executed in Missouri on Sept. 13, 2000.

                              "Nothing is too good to be true, nothing is too good to last, nothing is too wonderful to happen." - Florence Scoville Shinn

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by MarkGrace View Post
                                This has to be the case. Ages, polyandry, etc., I can see. To just not know that Joseph practiced polygamy? I have a hard time believing that one.
                                I think we're straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel here. He probably was aware that JS had multiple wives. And he was probably aware there were historicity issues with the BoM. And maybe he knew something about the complications with the standard Book of Abraham story (although I think fewer members are aware of this). I don't think it's uncommon for someone to be more or less 'aware' of those issues but not really feel their full weight or understand their complexity until years after hearing about them. It sounds to me like things began to snowball and circulate among certain circles of long-time members. This isn't totally mysterious and doesn't require us to assume bad faith on anyone's part.

                                I doubt that it's a question of these long-time members being totally naive about everything and then from one day to the next discovering the miracle of Google. But I don't think that very many faith crises take that shape anyway. How many people on this board that are perhaps only half-in the church now or maybe even all the way out went on a mission, learned about some of this stuff and managed to shelve it for a while until it became too much? Or perhaps learn something in more detail--e.g., not just that JS had multiple wives but their ages and circumstances and so on--and then that becomes the straw that broke the camel's back?

                                I don't know--I got the impression the guy is still doing his best to remain loyal. He doesn't seem like an apostate to me and it bugs me when people assume the worst about someone's motives. That is, as I said earlier, the dinosaur approach to resolving faith conflicts. It's ineffective and the brethren seem to be sending the signal that that's not how we deal with crises anymore.
                                Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
                                --William Blake, via Shpongle

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