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  • #76
    Originally posted by Pheidippides View Post
    We've created this powerful culture of scriptures devoid of context, in which we can take any scripture and say, "we'll, I think this means...."
    We haven't created this culture, we've inherited it. Proof-texting is infinitely worse outside of the church than it is inside it.
    Everything in life is an approximation.

    http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
      We haven't created this culture, we've inherited it. Proof-texting is infinitely worse outside of the church than it is inside it.
      I disagree quite strongly here. This IS correlation. Maybe we would have ended up here anyway, proof texting being what it is (we can disagree about in versus out of the church, but point well taken), but this was created in the 1960s or I am no judge of social science.

      (I am open to being no judge of social science).

      Jay, I don't think the information is especially important in a vacuum. It's its status as a cultural marker that makes it important.
      Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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      • #78
        Great job on your presentation, Pheid.

        On a personal note, I am grateful to a bishop I have never met who disregarded the WOW as a cultural marker. Roughly 45-50 years ago this bishop called my grandfather to be the ward financial clerk. My grandfather was inactive at the time, but had a knack for numbers. His response to the bishop: "Well hell, Bishop, I smoke." The Bishop could have told him he had to quit before he'd be worthy to accept such a calling. Instead, he simply asked him to put it out before he came inside the building. This calling spurred him to become active again and eventually quit smoking. A few years later his family was sealed together. Aside from the spiritual change in his life, I'm certain that had he not quit smoking, he would have died far sooner than he did. I may have been deprived of knowing that fine man if not for his bishop.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by jay santos View Post
          I'm struggling to understand the significance of this information. Most LDS understand the WoW has evolved over time and we understand and obey it how it is currently defined by the prophet and apostles, which is pretty clear.
          I don't think it's pretty clear. There are all kinds of gray areas, a few of which niku highlighted.

          Originally posted by Pheidippides View Post
          Jay, I don't think the information is especially important in a vacuum. It's its status as a cultural marker that makes it important.
          I've thought a lot about this "cultural marker" stuff and I'm trying to decide if I agree with you that it should not be used that way. I can't remember the name of the female blogger whom I used to read once in a while--she was one of the original really big bloggers, got a lot of national attention (I first came across mention of her in Time or Newsweek or something), used to be Mormon, lives in SLC, had left the church but a lot of her posts had something to do with the church as her parents and family were still active. Anyway...she mentioned once that she felt a lot more guilt when she drank her first cup of coffee than when she first had premarital sex (which preceded the coffee by a couple of years). She meant it as a sort of ironic observation and I initially took it that way, but her comment has still stuck with me. I don't think the WOW has any value as a health code. I don't think it has anything to do with a moral life. BUT, I think there is an interesting value to it as a cultural marker. When you consciously break it in one of the non-gray areas, you're making a statement. You're breaking from the tribe. Is that an important moral step (ie, is there a moral value to belonging to a group?)? I don't know, but as someone who regularly drinks coffee on night shifts, it's made me wonder a little.
          At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
          -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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          • #80
            Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
            I don't think it's pretty clear. There are all kinds of gray areas, a few of which niku highlighted.



            I've thought a lot about this "cultural marker" stuff and I'm trying to decide if I agree with you that it should not be used that way. I can't remember the name of the female blogger whom I used to read once in a while--she was one of the original really big bloggers, got a lot of national attention (I first came across mention of her in Time or Newsweek or something), used to be Mormon, lives in SLC, had left the church but a lot of her posts had something to do with the church as her parents and family were still active. Anyway...she mentioned once that she felt a lot more guilt when she drank her first cup of coffee than when she first had premarital sex (which preceded the coffee by a couple of years). She meant it as a sort of ironic observation and I initially took it that way, but her comment has still stuck with me. I don't think the WOW has any value as a health code. I don't think it has anything to do with a moral life. BUT, I think there is an interesting value to it as a cultural marker. When you consciously break it in one of the non-gray areas, you're making a statement. You're breaking from the tribe. Is that an important moral step (ie, is there a moral value to belonging to a group?)? I don't know, but as someone who regularly drinks coffee on night shifts, it's made me wonder a little.
            Interesting thoughts, and I wonder about such things myself. On the other hand, will the failure to live up to a particular cultural marker be the cause for rejection of another - I already drink coffee, therefore I'm out of the group, and let's have lots of reckless sex (for example). Even though the coffee may not have been an intentional rejection of the society. I also occasionally have a cup of joe - it's a race morning tradition, actually - and I wonder if it is a symptom of my break with the theology if not the group.

            HypoP, that's the exact thing I was trying to get across in my lesson. I would have shared that story at the end.
            Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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            • #81
              The WoW is a classic example of how we can be just as prone to Pharisaical thinking and practice as any religious group. I like how p-dippitydo's lesson highlighted that so well. It is great to get people to step back and think about the WoW from a different perspective and with some good historical context.
              "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
              "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
              "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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              • #82
                ER - while I don't think that blogger is making anything up, I can't help but wonder what in the world convinced her that drinking coffee was worse than premarital sex. Unless she just really enjoyed one more than the other and felt more guilt for the one she enjoyed...

                I'm just trying to figure out anything ever said that would lead to someone feeling that way.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Eddie View Post
                  ER - while I don't think that blogger is making anything up, I can't help but wonder what in the world convinced her that drinking coffee was worse than premarital sex. Unless she just really enjoyed one more than the other and felt more guilt for the one she enjoyed...

                  I'm just trying to figure out anything ever said that would lead to someone feeling that way.
                  How about that one of the activities is encouraged after marriage while the other activity is not OK in any situations?
                  "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
                  - Goatnapper'96

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Eddie View Post
                    ER - while I don't think that blogger is making anything up, I can't help but wonder what in the world convinced her that drinking coffee was worse than premarital sex. Unless she just really enjoyed one more than the other and felt more guilt for the one she enjoyed...

                    I'm just trying to figure out anything ever said that would lead to someone feeling that way.
                    She wasn't arguing that her feeling was right--she admitted it was ridiculous, just that it felt that way.

                    Pelado makes a good point though.

                    Does anyone remember her? I'd look her post up, but when I google "mormon blogger", well...
                    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                      I don't think it's pretty clear. There are all kinds of gray areas, a few of which niku highlighted.
                      What's not clear?

                      No coffee, no tea, no alcohol, no illegal drugs, no tobacco. Everything else OK. Is there 1/1,000 bishops that would interpret it differently?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by jay santos View Post
                        What's not clear?

                        No coffee, no tea, no alcohol, no illegal drugs, no tobacco. Everything else OK. Is there 1/1,000 bishops that would interpret it differently?
                        Off the top of my head, without reference to niku's talk (did you read it?):

                        Green coffee beans. Chocolate covered coffee beans. Coffee-flavored ice cream. Coffee candies made with real coffee.

                        Green tea. White tea. Green tea extract. Iced tea. Herbal tea (summon DDD!).

                        Rum cake. Non-alcoholic beer. Non-alcoholic wine.

                        Marijuana brownies in Colorado. Marijuana brownies in Amsterdam.

                        Etc.
                        At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                        -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Pelado View Post
                          How about that one of the activities is encouraged after marriage while the other activity is not OK in any situations?
                          Except no one has ever said that your parents would rather have you return home in the evening in a coffin than having partaken of coffee. No one ever said that you should die fighting rather than have alcohol forced on you. I don't recall hearing of kids who were kidnapped and were too ashamed to return home because they smoked a cigarette. I don't recall any discussion of temple marriage that included comments that your sweetheart won't want you if you broke the word of wisdom because you'll be like chewed gum.

                          These two things (sex vs. WoW) have just always been on very different planes to me.

                          I suppose if others are looking at it the same way she is, that brings new meaning to the doctrinal fights over caffeine in your soda and the significance of not partaking has in some people's minds.

                          ER - I get that she recognizes it was irrational and makes no sense. I'm just trying to imagine how it ever made sense in the first place.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                            ...
                            Marijuana brownies in Colorado. Marijuana brownies in Amsterdam.
                            ....
                            "Herbs are for the body".

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                              She wasn't arguing that her feeling was right--she admitted it was ridiculous, just that it felt that way.

                              Pelado makes a good point though.

                              Does anyone remember her? I'd look her post up, but when I google "mormon blogger", well...


                              Originally posted by Eddie View Post
                              Except no one has ever said that your parents would rather have you return home in the evening in a coffin than having partaken of coffee. No one ever said that you should die fighting rather than have alcohol forced on you. I don't recall hearing of kids who were kidnapped and were too ashamed to return home because they smoked a cigarette. I don't recall any discussion of temple marriage that included comments that your sweetheart won't want you if you broke the word of wisdom because you'll be like chewed gum.

                              These two things (sex vs. WoW) have just always been on very different planes to me.

                              I suppose if others are looking at it the same way she is, that brings new meaning to the doctrinal fights over caffeine in your soda and the significance of not partaking has in some people's minds.

                              ER - I get that she recognizes it was irrational and makes no sense. I'm just trying to imagine how it ever made sense in the first place.
                              Like anyone could even know that.

                              For the record, many people would prefer me in a coffin.
                              "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
                              - Goatnapper'96

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                                Off the top of my head, without reference to niku's talk (did you read it?):

                                Green coffee beans. Chocolate covered coffee beans. Coffee-flavored ice cream. Coffee candies made with real coffee.

                                Green tea. White tea. Green tea extract. Iced tea. Herbal tea (summon DDD!).

                                Rum cake. Non-alcoholic beer. Non-alcoholic wine.

                                Marijuana brownies in Colorado. Marijuana brownies in Amsterdam.

                                Etc.
                                A few may cause pause, but I doubt the vast majority of devout LDS spend much time wondering about most of that list.
                                Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

                                For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

                                Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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