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NY Times Article on Dissaffected Swedish Area Authority

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  • #16
    Originally posted by LiveCoug View Post
    I served in Sweden and know of Hans Mattson, but never met him. This falling away saddens me.
    What do you mean falling away??

    It isn't a falling away to value truth more than group think and loyalty to an organization that misleads its members. What Hans Mattsson has done is honorable.

    It takes courage to do what he did. I wouldn't dare do it--to publicly face scrutiny and be rejected by friends and others who value the Church ahead of the truth.

    Truth should always come first. The Church and the truth can coexist, but it will take a courageous church leader to make the appropriate changes. When a church leader is willing to stand up and say: "Joseph Smith did some very bad things." Or when a manual says: "Joseph Smith was rightfully put into Carthage Jail for criminal destruction of a printing press." --Then we will know that the Church values truth above propaganda.

    The Church will be a better place when it reaches this point.
    That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

    http://twitter.com/SoonerCoug

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    • #17
      I think this whole missionary/Facebook movement will only hurt the church. A whole bunch of bad information will be passed around at a quicker rate.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
        Truth should always come first. The Church and the truth can coexist, but it will take a courageous church leader to make the appropriate changes. When a church leader is willing to stand up and say: "Joseph Smith did some very bad things." Or when a manual says: "Joseph Smith was rightfully put into Carthage Jail for criminal destruction of a printing press." --Then we will know that the Church values truth above propaganda.
        So you're saying the destruction of the press wasn't a removal of a public nuisance as sanctioned by the Nauvoo Charter?
        "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Commando View Post
          So you're saying the destruction of the press wasn't a removal of a public nuisance as sanctioned by the Nauvoo Charter?
          No it's just that the destruction of the printing press was done really poorly.

          Also, the Times article is linked on the front page of RealClearPolitics.com.
          "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
          - Goatnapper'96

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post



            Anyone heard of this guy?

            Kind of surprised he didn't know about some this stuff.
            When I was a missionary 97-99 he was in the Mission Presidency. I didn't have a ton of interaction with him, but I was always impressed by him. His twin brother was a Stake President and his older brother was the HPGL in the ward that I served in for 8 months. I felt very close to his brother and family.

            In my opinion the Mattsson family is the preeminent family in Sweden, especially Gothenburg. Generational family. Very good, kind smart people.

            I have been aware of Bro Mattssons concerns for about 2 years. I have actually spoken to several members there. Some had left the church and some were concerned about how many people from their Stake were involved. I will not name names, but several people that I respected have left.

            I understand their concerns. It is a big deal to the church there.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
              What do you mean falling away??

              "Joseph Smith was rightfully put into Carthage Jail for criminal destruction of a printing press." --Then we will know that the Church values truth above propaganda.

              The Church will be a better place when it reaches this point.
              MMMMmmmm I think you missed the boat on that point. Given the history of persecution, the Nauvoo charter, and the clear conspiracy to murder him as a part of the arrest, you are going to be waiting a while to hear that apology. I have also heard many people say Joseph was a man with many real flaws. I don't believe they are just paying lip service when they say that.

              I understand the bigger point of your post though. I think it is an interesting time in the church. I am in my 30's. Perhaps I am just growing up and I did not see what was always there, but I have several lifelong friends who have left the church. I did not notice this happening in my ward growing up with people who seemed to fit the stereotypical Mormon mold. More people are willing to ask questions and expect answers. It must be a tough time for the guy. I hope he finds peace and happiness.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Pelado View Post
                No it's just that the destruction of the printing press was done really poorly.

                Also, the Times article is linked on the front page of RealClearPolitics.com.
                And it probably was the proximate cause of his murder.
                "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                - SeattleUte

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                  And it probably was the proximate cause of his murder.
                  If it wasn't that, it would have been another thing. I think it was becoming a tinderbox and economics was the real issue pissing everyone off. The press did provide the spark.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                    And it probably was the proximate cause of his murder.
                    For two seconds, remove JS's religion out of it. The narrative becomes a powerful and allegedly abusive mayor who destroyed a printing press that was printing unflattering things about him, tried to run away, turned himself in, and was lynched. Puts a different spin on the story. More Boss Tweed than Beelzebub.
                    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Vic Vega View Post
                      MMMMmmmm I think you missed the boat on that point. Given the history of persecution, the Nauvoo charter, and the clear conspiracy to murder him as a part of the arrest, you are going to be waiting a while to hear that apology. I have also heard many people say Joseph was a man with many real flaws. I don't believe they are just paying lip service when they say that.

                      I understand the bigger point of your post though. I think it is an interesting time in the church. I am in my 30's. Perhaps I am just growing up and I did not see what was always there, but I have several lifelong friends who have left the church. I did not notice this happening in my ward growing up with people who seemed to fit the stereotypical Mormon mold. More people are willing to ask questions and expect answers. It must be a tough time for the guy. I hope he finds peace and happiness.
                      I think his larger point is that this isn't necessarily a falling away--maybe it's a step up. I think you'd admit to this possibility, but even your last two sentences belie what is an annoyingly common assumption among church members. This may not be a tough time for the guy--maybe it's the first time he's really at peace in a long time.
                      At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                      -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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                      • #26
                        Maybe. It sounds like he is in turmoil to me. I am not saying in or out of the church. My buddies and I were all kind of in tough places figuring out what church stuff means to us at the same time. It really sucked. My two really close friends and I took different paths. I have stayed active, my 1 buddy tells his bishop and wife he does not believe but attends for his wife, and the third may have pulled his name. I think all 3 of us are happier now. I don't know if you know what I mean, but that feeling of being in limbo is really hard to deal with. Maybe this is the Sweedish guys end game, but I read the article to say he was still figuring things out.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Vic Vega View Post
                          Maybe. It sounds like he is in turmoil to me. I am not saying in or out of the church. My buddies and I were all kind of in tough places figuring out what church stuff means to us at the same time. It really sucked. My two really close friends and I took different paths. I have stayed active, my 1 buddy tells his bishop and wife he does not believe but attends for his wife, and the third may have pulled his name. I think all 3 of us are happier now. I don't know if you know what I mean, but that feeling of being in limbo is really hard to deal with. Maybe this is the Sweedish guys end game, but I read the article to say he was still figuring things out.
                          My situatio is similar to yours. And we aren't alone. Every once in a while I run into an old friend just to find out they have more or less left the church. All have stated that they are happier because of it. Myself included. The way the church handles apostacy only pushes people farther away leaving them with a bitter taste towards the church.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by AggieIam View Post
                            The way the church handles apostacy only pushes people farther away leaving them with a bitter taste towards the church.
                            What? We quit sending the Home and Visiting Teachers?
                            Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

                            For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

                            Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by AggieIam View Post
                              My situatio is similar to yours. And we aren't alone. Every once in a while I run into an old friend just to find out they have more or less left the church. All have stated that they are happier because of it. Myself included. The way the church handles apostacy only pushes people farther away leaving them with a bitter taste towards the church.
                              Ah... The bitter apostate. You are hitting all the stereotypes.
                              "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                              "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                              "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                                Ah... The bitter apostate. You are hitting all the stereotypes.
                                Here is a fun tangent for discussion on apostates and/or lds church failings:
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias


                                Roy F. Baumeister, a professor of social psychology at Florida State University, co-authored the idea of the negativity bias in a literature review in 2001 entitled, “Bad Is Stronger Than Good”. This review went through a whole gamut of psychological contexts from first impressions, close relationships, memory, self-identity and more, where a negative bias was apparent. Included was an experiment by Kahneman and Tversky where their participants gained or lost the same amount of money ($50). The findings concluded that people are more upset about losing money than are pleased gaining money. The review also found that negative events have longer lasting effects on emotions than positive events do. We also tend to think that people who say negative things are smarter than those who say positive things. This makes us give more weight to critical reviews and insights
                                You can go in all sorts of directions with it:
                                1. The LDS Church needs to own the "turds" in the history/doctrine/etc because that will ultimately dilute the negativity of finding the first "turd."
                                2. Apostates fixate on the negative because it is "more addictive" than the positive.
                                3. Negative arguments and critiques "seem smarter," but are they really?
                                4. The LDS church needs retool the (perceived?) negative practices that it persists in such that there is minimal negativity.

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