Originally posted by ByronMarchant
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"Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."
Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.
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Ugh...reading through this, I see why the Buddha said that metaphysical questions were a wasteful distraction. We have a young woman--make that, at least two young women--who were abused and potentially raped by a man in authority over them, with the organization at least trying to conceal it from public disclosure and possibly trying to smear the victim once it was revealed, and we're lost in the specifics of how God speaks to us, whether by the absence of a no or by a vision or by "it's not a bad idea"? Doesn't that seem a bit...academic, and in a sort of disgusting way?
Ok, maybe not or you wouldn't be participating in it. Or maybe this is everyone's way of coping with a really ugly turn of events, given that you can't do anything about it, and you'd like to still be members of said Church. I guess that's what discussion boards are for sometimes. Really, that a leader made a mistake in choosing a MTC president (if it even was a mistake) is so far from the center of my discomfort with this whole situation that I have a hard time empathizing with the concern. People make mistakes. Duh. And people hurt each other. Also, duh. No one can control that or foresee it. We can do some things to prevent it, but I hardly put "better revelatory power" in that list. I do put transparency near the top, and there I see some major issues.
So...to my point of coming back here. One of my big concerns in the recent revelations is this potential smearing of the victim. I don't know if this has been discussed, but the leaking of the disciplinary council events (or anything else, really) to Greg Bishop is a huge ethical issue. I've read discussions among a few attorneys on facebook (no, not niku), who all have said that there is no way that this "outside counsel" would have done this without the Church's direction. If that's true, I don't think there's any way to defend that. However, given that information would have the Church's fingerprints all over it, I see that as incredibly reckless and possibly illegal (wrt adoption info), with inevitable PR consequences, which seems out of character for the Church. It's also remarkably malicious, and, as misguided as I think the Church often is, I think it's rarely if ever malicious. So I have a hard time believing it and wanted to hear the other side. Ideas on how or why that would have happened?Last edited by ERCougar; 04-06-2018, 08:11 AM.At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10
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Originally posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View PostAgainst my better judgement...
I was asked to sustain that Hinckley had the ability to receive revelation from God about Bishop, his abilities and deficiencies and past choices. (The prophet/seer part would seem to say he could also have the ability to know what would happen as Nephi was shown the beginning to the end and all detail in between, without that changing anyone’s agency, but I’ll accept your belief that prophesy or acting as a seer requires infallibility of the person sustained to those callings as well as that it would’ve limited Bishop’s agency.)
Does saying that Hinckley could’ve asked the Lord to reveal to him if the grey area of Bishop’s past might disqualify him from service require a belief of infallibility? Do we not believe that the 1P and Q12 have this spiritual gift for items such as callings or only certain callings? What things are they able to see trough the grey on?
Am I allowed to be a TR holder who says that I believe they have this power except for when they don’t? Because, it has always been a yes or no belief question to me in the interview. If we believe they only have it at certain times, are we as members allowed to know what times this power is used and what times it isn’t?
I’m truly happy that you and others don’t find any incongruity in this event. Sadly, I do. Cardiac ealrlier said stop believing in mystical powers, Lebowski and Creek seem to be hedging between don’t believe in mystical powers all the time just sometimes. I love the church, it makes me happy to be a member and attend. Am I asked to sacrifice all I have to God leading all decisions, or a group that is very good people doing their absolute best? Because I’m in, but I’d like to know which one I belong to.At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10
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Originally posted by ERCougar View PostUgh...reading through this, I see why the Buddha said that metaphysical questions were a wasteful distraction. We have a young woman--make that, at least two young women--who were abused and potentially raped by a man in authority over them, with the organization at least trying to conceal it from public disclosure and possibly trying to smear the victim once it was revealed, and we're lost in the specifics of how God speaks to us, whether by the absence of a no or by a vision or by "it's not a bad idea"? Doesn't that seem a bit...academic, and in a sort of disgusting way?
Ok, maybe not or you wouldn't be participating it. Or maybe this is everyone's way of coping with a really ugly turn of events, given that you can't do anything about it, and you'd like to still be members of said Church. I guess that's what discussion boards are for sometimes. Really, that a leader made a mistake in choosing a MTC president (if it even was a mistake) is so far from the center of my discomfort with this whole situation that I have a hard time empathizing with the concern. People make mistakes. Duh. And people hurt each other. Also, duh. No one can control that or foresee it. We can do some things to prevent it, but I hardly put "better revelatory power" in that list. I do put transparency near the top, and there I see some major issues.
So...to my point of coming back here. One of my big concerns in the recent revelations is this potential smearing of the victim. I don't know if this has been discussed, but the leaking of the disciplinary council events to Greg Bishop is a huge ethical issue. I've read discussions among a few attorneys on facebook (no, not niku), who all have said that there is no way that this "outside counsel" would have done this without the Church's direction. If that's true, I don't think there's any way to defend that. However, given that information would have the Church's fingerprints all over it, I see that as incredibly reckless and possibly illegal (wrt adoption info), with inevitable PR consequences, which seems out of character for the Church. It's also remarkably malicious, and, as misguided as I think the Church often is, I think it's rarely if ever malicious. So I have a hard time believing it and wanted to hear the other side. Ideas on how or why that would have happened?
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Originally posted by jay santos View PostAgree it's a distraction and shouldn't be a discussion point. But you have it wrong on why it's being discussed. Church critics bring it up as a way to make fun of church members or otherwise prove why the church is not true. And then people jump in to argue why that's a dumb criticism.
EDIT: Ok, I take that back a little bit. I see what HFN/wuap/others are saying about what the Church claims, and I agree they ought to step back their claims there. It just doesn't really resonate with me. Maybe I gave up that standard a long time ago as a sort of understood Mormonspeak (like "I know that God lives").Last edited by ERCougar; 04-06-2018, 08:20 AM.At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10
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Originally posted by ByronMarchant View PostWhat exactly does it mean to tune into the spirit?
This sort of thing has always seemed incredibly ambiguous to me.
I think that's part of why the concept of "the spirit" resonates with people. It's like an invisible fortune teller speaking so vaguely that everything strikes a chord.
You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski
Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst
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Originally posted by ERCougar View PostSo...to my point of coming back here. One of my big concerns in the recent revelations is this potential smearing of the victim. I don't know if this has been discussed, but the leaking of the disciplinary council events (or anything else, really) to Greg Bishop is a huge ethical issue. I've read discussions among a few attorneys on facebook (no, not niku), who all have said that there is no way that this "outside counsel" would have done this without the Church's direction. If that's true, I don't think there's any way to defend that. However, given that information would have the Church's fingerprints all over it, I see that as incredibly reckless and possibly illegal (wrt adoption info), with inevitable PR consequences, which seems out of character for the Church. It's also remarkably malicious, and, as misguided as I think the Church often is, I think it's rarely if ever malicious. So I have a hard time believing it and wanted to hear the other side. Ideas on how or why that would have happened?
This whole thing is horrible from start to finish."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Topper View PostThat might be a first. I'm waiting with baited breath to read it.
On an unrelated note, I was hoping ER would return from his Eastern voyage somewhat enlightened. With a new drum, perhaps. But if his work this morning on fb and CS are any indication, it looks like he merely picked up a new mallet.Last edited by Donuthole; 04-06-2018, 09:57 AM.Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss
There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock
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Originally posted by old_gregg View Postthe question is central to the discussion, knucklehead. what is the point of having a called and set apart mouthpiece of god on earth if we’re all playing a guessing game about the fidelity of that persons stagements and actions vis a vis god? how is that different from any other smart person?
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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Originally posted by Donuthole View PostSave this link, as he's going to post his response here.
On an unrelated note, I was hoping ER would return from his Eastern voyage somewhat enlightened. With a new drum, perhaps. But if his work this morning on fb and CS are any indication, it looks like he merely picked up a new mallet.At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10
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Originally posted by ERCougar View PostStrange mixed metaphor aside, I'll point out that my complete FB/CS activity of the last week has consisted of: 1) some desperate attempts to capture some nice photos in what is generally a craphole of a city, 2) arguing with some attorneys that victim-smearing seems really out of character for the church, and 3) a little rant about people too easily triggered into ridiculousness. And then the above. I'll go find a new drumstick to hammer this dead horse.
Not a mixed metaphor for the enlightened!
bass drum diagram.jpgPrepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss
There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock
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Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
So...to my point of coming back here. One of my big concerns in the recent revelations is this potential smearing of the victim. I don't know if this has been discussed, but the leaking of the disciplinary council events (or anything else, really) to Greg Bishop is a huge ethical issue. I've read discussions among a few attorneys on facebook (no, not niku), who all have said that there is no way that this "outside counsel" would have done this without the Church's direction. If that's true, I don't think there's any way to defend that. However, given that information would have the Church's fingerprints all over it, I see that as incredibly reckless and possibly illegal (wrt adoption info), with inevitable PR consequences, which seems out of character for the Church. It's also remarkably malicious, and, as misguided as I think the Church often is, I think it's rarely if ever malicious. So I have a hard time believing it and wanted to hear the other side. Ideas on how or why that would have happened?
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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Originally posted by UVACoug View PostYou're assuming that God wasn't OK with Bishop being called into that position. There's no way you can know that.
Sent from my SM-G955U using TapatalkGet confident, stupid
-landpoke
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Originally posted by Donuthole View Post
Not a mixed metaphor for the enlightened!
[ATTACH]8704[/ATTACH]At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
-Berry Trammel, 12/3/10
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