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  • #76
    Tariffs, not slavery, precipitated the American Civil War

    Arthur Hirsch's recent article about the Battle of Gettysburg reveals a disturbing ignorance of the political dynamics that brought this nation to a war that 150 years later remains the most cataclysmic event in our history ("A defining day relived," July 2).


    It accepts the shallow but unchallenged premise that the Civil War occurred because slavery was practiced in the South, and that righteous resolve to abolish the institution left the U.S. with no option other than a resort to arms. This is a myopic view with which many historical facts simply cannot be reconciled.

    The war resulted from causes unrelated to slavery and abolition. It was entirely a consequence of the Southern states' secession, which occurred despite the undeniable fact that the slave states could not have hoped for better protection of slavery than that afforded by the U. S. Constitution — provided they remained in the Union.


    Both Lincoln and the slaveholders well knew in 1860 that a constitutional amendment ending slavery would never be mathematically feasible. But Lincoln further understood that the South was gravitating toward secession as the remedy for a different grievance altogether: The egregiously inequitable effects of a U. S. protective tariff that provided 90 percent of federal revenue.


    Foreign governments retaliated for it with tariffs of their own, and payment of those overseas levies represented the cost to Americans of their U. S. government. Southerners were generating two-thirds of U. S. exports, and also bearing two-thirds of the retaliatory tariffs abroad.


    The result was that that the 18.5 percent of America's citizens who lived in the South were saddled with three times their proportionate share of the federal government's costs.
    [...]
    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...tion-secession
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

    Comment


    • #77
      Ha. That's funny, Uncle Ted. You searched and found a letter to the editor written by a confederate apologist. Some creative writing there, with a remarkable closing statement:

      ... no Gettysburg visitor should ever be led to believe that the Civil War objective of the U.S. was anything other than preservation of its protective tariff in the Old South.
      Yowza.

      Since this is a thread about Texas, how about if we make this very simple and just look at the Texas declaration of secession? It isn't very long. Here is a link:

      https://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/aboutt.../2feb1861.html

      A few excerpts. First of all, Texas objects to several Northern states not obeying federal law relative to the Fugitive Slave Act:

      The States of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa, by solemn legislative enactments, have deliberately, directly or indirectly violated the 3rd clause of the 2nd section of the 4th article of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; thereby annulling a material provision of the compact, designed by its framers to perpetuate amity between the members of the confederacy and to secure the rights of the slave-holdings States in their domestic institutions--a provision founded in justice and wisdom, and without the enforcement of which the compact fails to accomplish the object of its creation. Some of those States have imposed high fines and degrading penalties upon any of their citizens or officers who may carry out in good faith that provision of the compact, or the federal laws enacted in accordance therewith.

      ...

      They have proclaimed, and at the ballot box sustained, the revolutionary doctrine that there is a "higher law" than the constitution and laws of our Federal Union, and virtually that they will disregard their oaths and trample upon our rights.

      They have for years past encouraged and sustained lawless organizations to steal our slaves and prevent their recapture, and have repeatedly murdered Southern citizens while lawfully seeking their rendition.
      Ha. Texas secedes because it is tired of Northern states exercising states' rights! (can we get an irony ruling?)

      And those damned yankees don't like slavery - a divine and beneficent institution!

      In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.
      Closing argument based on an appeal to white supremacy:

      We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

      That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States.
      In other words, pretty much the entire document references slavery as the reason for secession. Not a single reference to tariffs.
      "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
      "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
      "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
        Ha. That's funny, Uncle Ted. You searched and found a letter to the editor written by a confederate apologist. Some creative writing there, with a remarkable closing statement:



        Yowza.

        Since this is a thread about Texas, how about if we make this very simple and just look at the Texas declaration of secession? It isn't very long. Here is a link:

        https://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/aboutt.../2feb1861.html

        A few excerpts. First of all, Texas objects to several Northern states not obeying federal law relative to the Fugitive Slave Act:



        Ha. Texas secedes because it is tired of Northern states exercising states' rights! (can we get an irony ruling?)

        And those damned yankees don't like slavery - a divine and beneficent institution!



        Closing argument based on an appeal to white supremacy:



        In other words, pretty much the entire document references slavery as the reason for secession. Not a single reference to tariffs.
        It was about slavery. Did you read the article in the WA Post about all the mythology about the Confederacy that still persists? I agree with the author that we need to rename all the streets and highways named after racist traitors like Lee and Davis. There shouldn't be any federal money to maintain Confederate monuments.
        When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

        --Jonathan Swift

        Comment


        • #79
          I heard this story today, and this made me howl with laughter: "'This is Texas,' Walt says. 'This is a good Republican red state. They don't violate people's rights here. Take that to Chicago, New York, not here.'"

          http://www.npr.org/2015/07/07/420824...y-are-innocent

          There is more evil in Texas than any other state, including Utah.
          When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

          --Jonathan Swift

          Comment


          • #80
            BTW, here are the declaration of causes for seceding states for South Carolina, Mississippi, and Georgia (in addition to Texas).

            http://www.civilwarcauses.org/reasons.htm

            Fascinating reading. Slavery is clearly the main issue in every case, but each state specifically references Northern states refusing to enforce the fugitive slave laws (exercising states' rights!) as a specific cause. One example:

            In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

            The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."
            Ha. States' rights, my arse.
            "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
            "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
            "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
              It was about slavery. Did you read the article in the WA Post about all the mythology about the Confederacy that still persists? I agree with the author that we need to rename all the streets and highways named after racist traitors like Lee and Davis. There shouldn't be any federal money to maintain Confederate monuments.
              Yes, I already posted it here somewhere. This is the article:

              https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...ong/?tid=sm_fb
              "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
              "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
              "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

              Comment


              • #82
                lol @ Uncle Ted and cowboy!
                Fitter. Happier. More Productive.

                sigpic

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                  BTW, here are the declaration of causes for seceding states for South Carolina, Mississippi, and Georgia (in addition to Texas).

                  http://www.civilwarcauses.org/reasons.htm

                  Fascinating reading. Slavery is clearly the main issue in every case, but each state specifically references Northern states refusing to enforce the fugitive slave laws (exercising states' rights!) as a specific cause. One example:



                  Ha. States' rights, my arse.
                  The main cause was economics...

                  How the Cotton Gin Started the Civil War
                  [...]
                  Before the cotton gin, slavery had been on its way out—farmers realized it was more expensive to maintain slaves, compared to the value of what they could produce. Cotton was a troublesome crop anyway; its fiber could only be separated from the sticky, embedded seeds by hand, a grueling and exhausting process.


                  This changed dramatically, of course, with the advent of the cotton gin. Suddenly cotton became a lucrative crop and a major export for the South. However, because of this increased demand, many more slaves were needed to grow cotton and harvest the fields. Slave ownership became a fiery national issue and eventually led to the Civil War.
                  [...]
                  https://www.asme.org/engineering-top...-the-civil-war

                  It is just like seeing all the human rights violations that we see happening all over the world today but there are no wars started because of them. However, if a country threatens our oil supply (i.e. our economics) then a war is started. Of course, folks will point to the human rights violations or some other bullshit as the cause. Yes, slavery was absolutely wrong and is still absolutely wrong. One would think we are past that dark history but I don't see any wars being started over all the slavery (aka. "human trafficking") that is happening today. Where are the wars? We are too busy fighting wars for primarily economic reasons to notice I guess.

                  Back to my original point and the article you posted making the following assertions:

                  This Fall, Texas schools will teach students that Moses played a bigger role in inspiring the Constitution than slavery did in starting the Civil War.
                  I already called this bullshit and found what the textbook actually said about Moses. It doesn't say Moses inspired anything. The shit for an article doesn't provide anything to back this assertion other than opinion. If you have a better quote from the actual textbook that backs the above assertion then please post it.

                  It is alarming that 150 years after the Civil War's end children are learning that slavery was, as one Texas board of education member put it in 2010, "a side issue."


                  Of course, the author didn't provide any actual quotes from the textbook other than this little snippet:

                  They teach that "sectionalism, states' rights and slavery" — carefully ordered to stress the first two and shrug off the last — caused the conflict.
                  So in all these state declarations slavery is carefully ordered and listed first, right?
                  "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
                  "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
                  "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
                  GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    It's a lot easier to become morally outraged about something when money is involved.

                    States' rights as a justification for discrimination. Where have I seen that before?
                    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
                      It is just like seeing all the human rights violations that we see happening all over the world today but there are no wars started because of them. However, if a country threatens our oil supply (i.e. our economics) then a war is started. Of course, folks will point to the human rights violations or some other bullshit as the cause. Yes, slavery was absolutely wrong and is still absolutely wrong. One would think we are past that dark history but I don't see any wars being started over all the slavery (aka. "human trafficking") that is happening today. Where are the wars? We are too busy fighting wars for primarily economic reasons to notice I guess.
                      What on earth is your point with that? Yes, slavery was clearly an economic issue for the south. Nobody on either side ever denied that.

                      Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
                      Back to my original point and the article you posted making the following assertions:

                      I already called this bullshit and found what the textbook actually said about Moses. It doesn't say Moses inspired anything. The shit for an article doesn't provide anything to back this assertion other than opinion. If you have a better quote from the actual textbook that backs the above assertion then please post it.

                      Of course, the author didn't provide any actual quotes from the textbook other than this little snippet:

                      So in all these state declarations slavery is carefully ordered and listed first, right?
                      That's funny that you keep going back to that and also funny that you are sure there is only one comment about Moses because that is all you found in your google search. You have proven a negative without actually seeing the book! Congrats.

                      Actually, here is a more detailed run-down of the issues in the new textbooks.

                      http://wonkette.com/560133/new-texas...ry-segregation

                      I especially like that wacky cartoon and interactive worksheet where the space aliens get affirmative action benefits.



                      You will notice more material on Moses (among other problems). If you want a more detailed analysis, check out the executive summary of the Texas Freedom Network that had a panel of college profs review the textbooks:

                      http://www.tfn.org/site/DocServer/FI...pdf?docID=4625

                      Various Moses references discussed on pages 9-11.
                      "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                      "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                      "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by TripletDaddy View Post
                        lol @ Uncle Ted and cowboy!
                        I actually think Lebowski is the only one not in on the joke here...
                        "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                          You will notice more material on Moses (among other problems). If you want a more detailed analysis, check out the executive summary of the Texas Freedom Network that had a panel of college profs review the textbooks:

                          http://www.tfn.org/site/DocServer/FI...pdf?docID=4625

                          Various Moses references discussed on pages 9-11.
                          FINALLY! You find something that is worth reading. Why didn't your original shit for an article you posted just simply reference this?

                          From the above document...

                          First, a clarification: all three of these publishers provide thorough and accurate coverage of slavery in their products. There is no attempt to hide the issue in the run up to the Civil War.
                          As for the moses material it looks like the review has, as you like to put it, a lot of nitpicking over words.

                          For example:

                          Further, stating that “Moses handed down God’s Ten Commandments” is very close to endorsing a religious claim. Stating, for instance, that “Jews and Christians believe that Moses handed down God’s Ten Commandments” would have been more acceptable. Without this qualification, the text seems to endorse the truth of these biblical claims.
                          Well, ok. The authors should have said "Jews and Christians believe that". Of course, I am sure there is a lot of things in history books that should have this qualification showing opinion. That article you posted could have used a lot of this.
                          "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
                          "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
                          "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
                          GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                            I actually think Lebowski is the only one not in on the joke here...
                            lol @ uncle Ted, cowboy, and jeff lebowski!
                            Fitter. Happier. More Productive.

                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              LOL a fight breaks out between JL, DDD and SU (the clique) vs Cowboy and Tex. I am too old to fight, but I know who my money is on.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
                                FINALLY! You find something that is worth reading. Why didn't your original shit for an article you posted just simply reference this?

                                From the above document...
                                Yes, the textbooks don't deny that slavery existed. They just incorrectly present the root cause for the Civil War. From the next two paragraphs:

                                However, the requirement in the curriculum standards that compels coverage of “sectionalism, states’ rights, and slavery” (in that order) as causes of the war leads publishers to these sort of misleading – and even inaccurate – passages.

                                They are inaccurate for a simple reason: the concept of “states’ rights” in an abstract sense as a defense of secession did not appear until after the conclusion of the Civil War. Contemporaneous documents and statements by southerners make it plain that slavery was the underlying reason for their action. In their secession ordinances, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas all stated their understanding that slavery had been placed in danger by Lincoln’s election and made that their major theme. Moreover, high officials, such as Confederate President Jefferson Davis and Vice President Alexander H. Stephens, made plain the absolute centrality of protecting slavery as the reason for secession. That point is important for two reasons. One is that both Davis and Stephens revised their positions after the war was over to argue that slavery had not been the issue at all, maintaining instead that it had been about abstract constitutionalism. The other is that these passages, which appear designed to fit the TEKS requirement of considering “states’ rights” as a separate issue, does dovetail with current neo-Confederate ideology, which is deeply false to the historical record.
                                Swish.
                                "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                                "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                                "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                                Comment

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