Would you be out if polyandry is reinstated?

[Uncle Ted]

Could someone point me to the reference in the D&C where the practice of polyandry was given as revelation? If there is no revelation then it may be safe to conclude that those that practiced this may have ventured off the reservation and even prophets are not perfect.

[scottie]

Could someone point me to the reference in the D&C where the practice of polyandry was given as revelation? If there is no revelation then it may be safe to conclude that those that practiced this may have ventured off the reservation and even prophets are not perfect.

I'm afraid this is as close as you're going to get:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132

[Rosebud]

I assume that you are aware that BY continued polyandry? One of BY's wives had been sealed to JS and was still married to her original husband (Zina Huntington?). Not to mention that we practiced celestial polyandry (married women sealed to dead prophets) for many years

Zina was married to Brigham for time. Compton states in In Sacred Lonliness, that:

According to family traditions, "President Young told Zina D. if she would marry him she would be in a higher glory." However, Zina was already sealed to Joseph Smith so it is not clear how being sealed for time would improve her chances for eternal salvation. In any event, Brigham approached her after Smith's death and she apparently married him for time in September 1844. Nevertheless, she remained married and cohabiting with Jacobs, which would be consistent with Smith's practice of polyandry. (84)

Marinda Hyde, OTOH, was evidently sealed to both Joseph and Orson Hyde. Compton calls this arrangement an "anomaly" (84).



Speaking of family traditions, this is an interesting story: My great something grandmother had two for-time marriages, but was sealed to Joseph Smith several years after his death. She left a letter for her progeny explaining that she had gone to Joseph himself to ask him which of her two husbands she should be sealed to. The first had been killed at Haun's mill and the second had cheated with the teenage help and tried to pass it off as polygamy. She had children from both marriages. Joseph's answer was, according to her, that she should marry neither, but to come back and talk to him in one week.

If this story has any truth, Joseph had somehow found time to meet with my grandmother just before he was taken into custody because by the time the week had elapsed, he had already been martyred. My grandmother wrote that on the day Joseph had meant for her to come meet with him, he came to her in a vision and told her that she needed to be sealed to him with Brigham standing proxy. She stated that at time she had the vision, she believed it to be false and therefore decided not to approach Brigham on the subject.

She writes that years later, though, after lots of life's vicissitudes, she thought back to the vision and started wondering if it had merit. At that time she decided to visit Brigham at the Beehive House and ask him what he thought on the matter. Her record states that Brigham told her the vision had been genuine and chided her for not coming to him right after Joseph's death. If she had, he evidently said that he would have stood proxy for Joseph then married her for time himself. As things were at that late date, though, he had too many other wives to take care of and would only stand proxy for Joseph. If I remember correctly, she said that he called a sealer into the room and she was sealed to Joseph right then and there..... but I didn't go dig out my Book of Remembrance to type this up so I'm not exactly sure on all the details. AFAIK, the sealing still stands today.

Anyway.... it seems that eternal polyandry was the exception. For-time polyandry was much more acceptable. Unless a lot of other women were sealed to dead prophets AND their husbands...... that would be different than the information I have, though.

[RobinFinderson]

Zina was married to Brigham for time. Compton states in In Sacred Lonliness, that:



Marinda Hyde, OTOH, was evidently sealed to both Joseph and Orson Hyde. Compton calls this arrangement an "anomaly" (84).



Speaking of family traditions, this is an interesting story: My great something grandmother had two for-time marriages, but was sealed to Joseph Smith several years after his death. She left a letter for her progeny explaining that she had gone to Joseph himself to ask him which of her two husbands she should be sealed to. The first had been killed at Haun's mill and the second had cheated with the teenage help and tried to pass it off as polygamy. She had children from both marriages. Joseph's answer was, according to her, that she should marry neither, but to come back and talk to him in one week.

If this story has any truth, Joseph had somehow found time to meet with my grandmother just before he was taken into custody because by the time the week had elapsed, he had already been martyred. My grandmother wrote that on the day Joseph had meant for her to come meet with him, he came to her in a vision and told her that she needed to be sealed to him with Brigham standing proxy. She stated that at time she had the vision, she believed it to be false and therefore decided not to approach Brigham on the subject.

She writes that years later, though, after lots of life's vicissitudes, she thought back to the vision and started wondering if it had merit. At that time she decided to visit Brigham at the Beehive House and ask him what he thought on the matter. Her record states that Brigham told her the vision had been genuine and chided her for not coming to him right after Joseph's death. If she had, he evidently said that he would have stood proxy for Joseph then married her for time himself. As things were at that late date, though, he had too many other wives to take care of and would only stand proxy for Joseph. If I remember correctly, she said that he called a sealer into the room and she was sealed to Joseph right then and there..... but I didn't go dig out my Book of Remembrance to type this up so I'm not exactly sure on all the details. AFAIK, the sealing still stands today.

Anyway.... it seems that eternal polyandry was the exception. For-time polyandry was much more acceptable. Unless a lot of other women were sealed to dead prophets AND their husbands...... that would be different than the information I have, though.

I might rejoin if Rosebud were to become my polyandrous wife. What do you say, RB? You know it would only be because your husband isn't righteous enough to ride his coattails to the CK. I'd be your insurance policy.

[LA Ute]

Could someone point me to the reference in the D&C where the practice of polyandry was given as revelation? If there is no revelation then it may be safe to conclude that those that practiced this may have ventured off the reservation and even prophets are not perfect.

This is why I don't think the word "reinstated" is correct in the thread's title. Premise seems off to me.

[Rosebud]

I might rejoin if Rosebud were to become my polyandrous wife. What do you say, RB? You know it would only be because your husband isn't righteous enough to ride his coattails to the CK. I'd be your insurance policy.

That's the creepiest proposal I've ever received.... well, second creepiest. BTW, when I practice polyandry, I want to be able to make the proposals myself.

However, I took it this up with Mr. Rosebud because you've always been such a good friend. His response was that you didn't deserve a response. I told him he only felt that way because he doesn't know you very well yet. I suggested he use your posts here on CUF to try to figure out if you'd make a good brother husband. He told me that we'd only be practicing polyandry if we also practiced polygamy. For some strange reason, he didn't really seem to care about making it to the CK during this discussion.... so that part of your proposal never got air time.

And this brings me to how two-faced it is for any man to vote that he wouldn't leave the church if it reinstated polygamy, but would leave if it reinstated polyandry. Sigh.....

This is why I don't think the word "reinstated" is correct in the thread's title. Premise seems off to me.

I think I can see where you're trying to go with this argument, but I don't really see what it buys you. Joseph and Brigham both practiced polyandry. This line of reasoning forces you to admit that they had sexual relationships with married women that weren't supported by official doctrine/revelation and therefore weren't approved of by god.

[LA Ute]

That's the creepiest proposal I've ever received.... well, second creepiest. BTW, when I practice polyandry, I want to be able to make the proposals myself.

However, I took it this up with Mr. Rosebud because you've always been such a good friend. His response was that you didn't deserve a response. I told him he only felt that way because he doesn't know you very well yet. I suggested he use your posts here on CUF to try to figure out if you'd make a good brother husband. He told me that we'd only be practicing polyandry if we also practiced polygamy. For some strange reason, he didn't really seem to care about making it to the CK during this discussion.... so that part of your proposal never got air time.

And this brings me to how two-faced it is for any man to vote that he wouldn't leave the church if it reinstated polygamy, but would leave if it reinstated polyandry. Sigh.....



I think I can see where you're trying to go with this argument, but I don't really see what it buys you. Joseph and Brigham both practiced polyandry. This line of reasoning forces you to admit that they had sexual relationships with married women that weren't supported by official doctrine/revelation and therefore weren't approved of by god.

I won't quibble with you about words. IMO, it's not supportable to equate polygamy and polyandry so far as official church sanction and breadth of practice are concerned. I can see how polygamy could theoretically be "reinstated." Polyandry not so much.

[RobinFinderson]

That's the creepiest proposal I've ever received.... well, second creepiest. BTW, when I practice polyandry, I want to be able to make the proposals myself.

However, I took it this up with Mr. Rosebud because you've always been such a good friend. His response was that you didn't deserve a response. I told him he only felt that way because he doesn't know you very well yet. I suggested he use your posts here on CUF to try to figure out if you'd make a good brother husband. He told me that we'd only be practicing polyandry if we also practiced polygamy. For some strange reason, he didn't really seem to care about making it to the CK during this discussion.... so that part of your proposal never got air time.

And this brings me to how two-faced it is for any man to vote that he wouldn't leave the church if it reinstated polygamy, but would leave if it reinstated polyandry. Sigh.....



I think I can see where you're trying to go with this argument, but I don't really see what it buys you. Joseph and Brigham both practiced polyandry. This line of reasoning forces you to admit that they had sexual relationships with married women that weren't supported by official doctrine/revelation and therefore weren't approved of by god.

Hey now, what were you thinking by bringing Mr. RoseBud into this thing?? That was totally unnecessary (from an historical POV). As for your idea about being the one able to make the proposals, that is perfectly fine with me... I'll wait. As for your husband's disinterest in making it to the CK, I kind of figured that was the case, which is the only reason I made the proposal in the first place. You will be riding that man's coattails straight to the Terrestrial Kingdom, if you aren't careful.

Of course both my original proposal, and your eventual proposal, both presume that the church has reinstated polyandry, which obviously hasn't happened yet. So while we wait, may I suggest you master your pie-baking skills? My favorite flavor is cherry.

[MarkGrace]

I'm with William Law on this one.

[Rosebud]

I won't quibble with you about words. IMO, it's not supportable to equate polygamy and polyandry so far as official church sanction and breadth of practice are concerned. I can see how polygamy could theoretically be "reinstated." Polyandry not so much.

But LA, you're the one who started the quibble over words. The distinction you've decided to make is not rational. I'm left believing that you choose it because it brings you personal comfort. That's fine and all, but please keep in mind that ideas that are comforting and safe to some are hurtful and dangerous to others.

[LA Ute]

But LA, you're the one who started the quibble over words. The distinction you've decided to make is not rational. I'm left believing that you choose it because it brings you personal comfort. That's fine and all, but please keep in mind that ideas that are comforting and safe to some are hurtful and dangerous to others.

Oh, just leave me alone!

[SuperGabers]

As to the original question: GONE.

[wuapinmon]

Hey now, what were you thinking by bringing Mr. RoseBud into this thing?? That was totally unnecessary (from an historical POV). As for your idea about being the one able to make the proposals, that is perfectly fine with me... I'll wait. As for your husband's disinterest in making it to the CK, I kind of figured that was the case, which is the only reason I made the proposal in the first place. You will be riding that man's coattails straight to the Terrestrial Kingdom, if you aren't careful.

Of course both my original proposal, and your eventual proposal, both presume that the church has reinstated polyandry, which obviously hasn't happened yet. So while we wait, may I suggest you master your pie-baking skills? My favorite flavor is cherry.

Keep it up and someone's going to serve you a warrant.

[Sullyute]

There is a very interesting post on FMH right now about what it might be like if polyandry was reinstate and the woman was the one that gets to choose her next husband. It is kind of a long post but definitely gives you a new perspective on what it might feel like to be on the other end of the deal...

Marketplace

I examine my face to see if it looks as grey as I feel. Morning sickness is never kind to the under-eye, but a little concealer thankfully brightens things up a lot. “Pull it together, you like these things, you’ve been looking forward to this all day!” Appearance is important – a razor dance of looking good without going for osentatious hotness. My husband Ryan comes up from behind, kisses my neck, and says I look awesome. He’s always super touchy-feely on nights like this, and is dressed up handsomely to escort me to the dance. He would spend most of the evening at the guy party in the Primary room, but being part of the dance was important to him. After kissing the kids good night we drive in the car, and he’s a little over-cheerful when he decides to talk at all.

We arrive at the stake center and follow the music to the gym. He twirls me about until another love song plays, when we dance a slow circle in warm embrace. This is an important part of the ritual, and even when I just want to get on with the business of the evening, I respect this interlude with grace and affection. Music fades, Ryan holds me close through a long inhale of perfume, kisses my hand, wishes me good luck, and retires to the Primary room.
I check out the dancers to see if my date is here yet.


There’s Nico at the refreshment table, throwing cherry tomatoes into the air to catch them in his mouth. I sneak up from behind and throw at grape at his face, knocking away an incoming tomato. He pounces and kisses me on the mouth. Nico is my first boyfriend since Ryan and I were married 8 years ago, and deciding to date again had at first been really scary. I started by just lurking these family dances, frequented by other matriarchs and single young men who want a wife for eternal marriage, but don’t want the pressure of supporting a family alone. They are also just trying to dedicate their lives to divinity by obeying commandments to marry into strong families – making them the most worthy of marriageable men. I find the whole thing really satisfying, and even though Nico is 11 years younger, he knows I am beautiful.

We’d met through some friends at one of my kid’s soccer games, then Ryan and Nico had hit it off over squash. A few of these kind of dances later we decided to take rock-climbing classes together, and he kissed me the first time I got to the top of the climbing wall. Ryan knows this was our thing, just for Nico and me, but that was okay as long as I save the jogging dates for him.
I decide that since the first trimester is well over, and I am starting to show, I need to tell Nico about the pregnancy tonight. (At least so he’d know we have to stop rock climbing for awhile.) Guys like it when women are pregnant – it proves their fertility – but usually a priestess dates non-pregnant so her prospect can build intimacy and claim the next heir upon marriage. This will be a test of his love for me. If we are still together tomorrow after he hears the news, I’ll know this is serious, and will start taking steps to get him sealed to me. Out of respect for Ryan, we’ll probably wait until next year after the baby is born. The next baby will be Nico’s, I’ll promise him that, and maybe we’ll even get lucky with a honeymoon pregnancy…

“You look rockin!” I tell him, and wiggle my eyebrows.

The music bursts out loud and fast and a couple gets out on the dance floor with some great moves. The woman is always showing off – she’s a player, not really looking for another husband, but just comes to dance with the guys. The one she’s with right now, Simon, is a serious student of microbiology, and could use a good family situation to get him through grad school. He’s fun to talk to, seems pretty creative, and was happy enough last week when I asked for his number. It might get tricky though – even if it’s fairly common to marry multiple times in a year, Simon has a brother Mitch who insists they’ll marry together so they can live in the same house. Everyone thinks Mitch is gay. I sigh at the difficulties that presents: every priestess in town will want this pair when Mitch comes of age because the gay guys make the best companions and are great with the kids. I’ll see if I can get an edge by talking to their mother. We go way back.

But Nico I’ll marry for love, and see how Ryan takes it. I pull Nico out on the floor. Maybe we’ll need to take dance classes instead of rock climbing. Ryan is peeking in the door and we wave to him. A lot could change tonight, but right now, I can see lovely Ryan with soft eyes, Nico is warm and we share breath, and I think I just felt the baby move. This is a moment to be etched in the friezes of forever.

[Devildog]

There is a very interesting post on FMH right now about what it might be like if polyandry was reinstate and the woman was the one that gets to choose her next husband. It is kind of a long post but definitely gives you a new perspective on what it might feel like to be on the other end of the deal...

OH HELL NO!

What clown would do that?