If a female tried to get into the priesthood session of GC...

[Green Monstah]

Oh, but you forget there is a trump card for this trump card...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/7.2?lang=eng

And if they still don't get the hint then continue onto verse #3...

But they have a trump to your trump. The JST adds the word "unrighteously" after the first not in verse 1, doesn't it?

[Northwestcoug]

But they have a trump to your trump. The JST adds the word "unrighteously" after the first not in verse 1, doesn't it?

I was going to say this is the trump card they would play to trump the trump card UT would use to trump their trump card.

[Uncle Ted]

This could be how it goes:

Women will be ordained, not with the power of the priesthood, but with the power of Jesus Christ to heal etc. Women will have spiritual gifts restored, on a voluntary basis, if they want. The men will retain the ceremonial positions of priesthood power, and the power to preside over meetings and gatherings and offices. This new power will be rejected by older women and traditionalists, and embraced by younger women. Women without a priesthood holder in their home (or without a worthy one) will seek to become worthy to gain the power of these spiritual gifts, and there will be a revival of the traditional midwife role of minister to the members of the ward. Older women and traditionalist women will look on with envy. Offices for which there is no need for priesthood power (finance clerk, membership clerk, sunday school president, maybe WML) will start being held by women.

I always cringe when a women gets up on open mic sunday and says they are very thankful to have a priesthood holder in their home. Folks don't think about all the single sisters in their ward and how it makes them feel when they say that.

When someone asks what is the "priesthood" the standard answer is the authority to act in God's name. If women were giving blessings and healing people then I guess they were not acting in God's name (but using some other power?)

As for the ceremonial positions of priesthood power there are women in the bible with the title of prophetess and others that received prophesy from God. For example, Deborah:

4 ¶And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/judg/4.4?lang=eng

Deborah was a judge and leader of Israel. So I guess one can be a prophet without the priesthood.

[byu71]

I was going to say this is the trump card they would play to trump the trump card UT would use to trump their trump card.

Or "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:9

For the record, that is exactly how I feel when dealing with some of you.

[Uncle Ted]

But they have a trump to your trump. The JST adds the word "unrighteously" after the first not in verse 1, doesn't it?

This is a prefect example of a situation when it is appropriate to continue on to verse #3.

[ERCougar]

This could be how it goes:

Women will be ordained, not with the power of the priesthood, but with the power of Jesus Christ to heal etc. Women will have spiritual gifts restored, on a voluntary basis, if they want. The men will retain the ceremonial positions of priesthood power, and the power to preside over meetings and gatherings and offices. This new power will be rejected by older women and traditionalists, and embraced by younger women. Women without a priesthood holder in their home (or without a worthy one) will seek to become worthy to gain the power of these spiritual gifts, and there will be a revival of the traditional midwife role of minister to the members of the ward. Older women and traditionalist women will look on with envy. Offices for which there is no need for priesthood power (finance clerk, membership clerk, sunday school president, maybe WML) will start being held by women. Young women will embark on their missions with these extra spiritual gifts, and they will soon gain a reputation for miraculous healing, etc.

This sounds a lot like "separate but equal". That usually works out pretty well.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/judg/4.4?lang=eng

Deborah was a judge and leader of Israel. So I guess one can be a prophet without the priesthood.

Solon can correct me on this, but modern Christianity was basically laid out by Paul, a man with no prophetic keys, and against the behest of the man with the keys.

[All-American]

This sounds a lot like "separate but equal". That usually works out pretty well.

But see U.S. v. Virginia, 518 U.S. 515 (1996) (acknowledging "'inherent differences' between men and women" which "remain cause for celebration").

[Jeff Lebowski]

This could be how it goes:

Women will be ordained, not with the power of the priesthood, but with the power of Jesus Christ to heal etc. Women will have spiritual gifts restored, on a voluntary basis, if they want. The men will retain the ceremonial positions of priesthood power, and the power to preside over meetings and gatherings and offices. This new power will be rejected by older women and traditionalists, and embraced by younger women. Women without a priesthood holder in their home (or without a worthy one) will seek to become worthy to gain the power of these spiritual gifts, and there will be a revival of the traditional midwife role of minister to the members of the ward. Older women and traditionalist women will look on with envy. Offices for which there is no need for priesthood power (finance clerk, membership clerk, sunday school president, maybe WML) will start being held by women. Young women will embark on their missions with these extra spiritual gifts, and they will soon gain a reputation for miraculous healing, etc.

Highly unlikely, but an interesting idea.

There is nothing in either the Bible or BOM indicating that priesthood (in the manner we interpret that term) is required to either administer spiritual gifts or govern the church.

As others have pointed out, women routinely performed healing rituals in the church until around the latter part of the 19th century when they were told to knock it off. JS repeatedly told the RS that they would get (or already had) the priesthood.

The linkage of priesthood with leadership authority did not occur (in a major way) until the church started cracking down on rogue polygamists in the early twentieth century and then it was extended to its current state during the correlation era.

[Green Monstah]

Highly unlikely, but an interesting idea.

There is nothing in either the Bible or BOM indicating that priesthood (in the manner we interpret that term) is required to either administer spiritual gifts or govern the church.

As others have pointed out, women routinely performed healing rituals in the church until around the latter part of the 19th century when they were told to knock it off. JS repeatedly told the RS that they would get (or already had) the priesthood.

The linkage of priesthood with leadership authority did not occur (in a major way) until the church started cracking down on rogue polygamists in the early twentieth century and then it was extended to its current state during the correlation era.

That's an interesting idea that makes sense given how polygamists made/make the distinction between the Church and the priesthood. Did you reach this conclusion independently, or is it the premise of an article/book you read?

[Pheidippides]

That's an interesting idea that makes sense given how polygamists made/make the distinction between the Church and the priesthood. Did you reach this conclusion independently, or is it the premise of an article/book you read?

There's quite a bit of documentation - see Daymon Smith's correlation essay on BCC for more info.

[creekster]

This sounds a lot like "separate but equal". That usually works out pretty well.


.

Or maybe "separate and almost, but not really, equal."

[Jeff Lebowski]

That's an interesting idea that makes sense given how polygamists made/make the distinction between the Church and the priesthood. Did you reach this conclusion independently, or is it the premise of an article/book you read?

One of the best sources is Daymon Smith's PhD dissertation on the history of correlation. It starts with a fascinating discussion of polygamy because correlation (or the seeds of correlation) started out as an effort to reign in members still practicing polygamy long after the manifesto. Charlie Harrell's book on the evolution of LDS doctrine is another excellent resource on how our concept of priesthood has changed over time. Finally, you have the D. Michael Quinn books on the history of the LDS hierarchy: Origins of Power, Extensions of Power (still working my way through these).

[pellegrino]

Oh, but you forget there is a trump card for this trump card...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/7.2?lang=eng

And if they still don't get the hint then continue onto verse #3...

trump or not, that scripture cuts both ways and is too easily turned against whoever plays it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

There's quite a bit of documentation - see Daymon Smith's correlation essay on BCC for more info.

And by the way, there is also a two-hour podcast. It is outstanding.

[Green Monstah]

And by the way, there is also a two-hour podcast. It is outstanding.

Thanks, Gents.