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Thread: COVID-19 Vaccines, Herd Immunity, & the Anti-Vaxxers

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    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Default COVID-19 Vaccines, Herd Immunity, & the Anti-Vaxxers

    This is an interesting enough tangent that I think it deserves a dedicated thread. Clearly, this pandemic will not be over until an effective vaccine is developed, tested, mass-produced, and used by large majority of the population. Given the moon-shot style effort currently underway and billions of dollars being invested, I am quite confident that the first 3 of those 4 things will happen - by the end of this year or early next year. Sadly, I am less confident of item 4. I saw a poll recently showing that 50% of Americans say they will not accept a vaccine when it is ready. I know several people personally who say the same thing. And given how incredibly stupid people are acting about masks right now, I have little doubt that vaccines will be similar.

    So what do we do? What happens if half of the population refuses to get vaccinated? Do you deny them access to public places and events? Do you just open everything up and let them suffer the consequences? If you do that, what happens when your hospitals are overwhelmed with sick anti-vaxxers?

    How did we become this stupid and anti-science? It's depressing.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Board eye candy beefytee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    This is an interesting enough tangent that I think it deserves a dedicated thread. Clearly, this pandemic will not be over until an effective vaccine is developed, tested, mass-produced, and used by large majority of the population. Given the moon-shot style effort currently underway and billions of dollars being invested, I am quite confident that the first 3 of those 4 things will happen - by the end of this year or early next year. Sadly, I am less confident of item 4. I saw a poll recently showing that 50% of Americans say they will not accept a vaccine when it is ready. I know several people personally who say the same thing. And given how incredibly stupid people are acting about masks right now, I have little doubt that vaccines will be similar.

    So what do we do? What happens if half of the population refuses to get vaccinated? Do you deny them access to public places and events? Do you just open everything up and let them suffer the consequences? If you do that, what happens when your hospitals are overwhelmed with sick anti-vaxxers?

    How did we become this stupid and anti-science? It's depressing.
    It isn't just the anti-vaxxers who would be affected though. Much like all vaccines, there are people with health issues that can't get vaccines and are dependent on herd immunity to stay healthy.

    I imagine that all children attending public schools in Utah will be required to get the vaccine, similar to other vaccines. https://immunize.utah.gov/school-ear...nization-rule/

    Unfortunately there is an exemption for Medical (Good), religious (debatable), and Personal (bad) reasons.

    Time to at least get rid of the personal exemption.

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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    This is an interesting enough tangent that I think it deserves a dedicated thread. Clearly, this pandemic will not be over until an effective vaccine is developed, tested, mass-produced, and used by large majority of the population. Given the moon-shot style effort currently underway and billions of dollars being invested, I am quite confident that the first 3 of those 4 things will happen - by the end of this year or early next year. Sadly, I am less confident of item 4. I saw a poll recently showing that 50% of Americans say they will not accept a vaccine when it is ready. I know several people personally who say the same thing. And given how incredibly stupid people are acting about masks right now, I have little doubt that vaccines will be similar.

    So what do we do? What happens if half of the population refuses to get vaccinated? Do you deny them access to public places and events? Do you just open everything up and let them suffer the consequences? If you do that, what happens when your hospitals are overwhelmed with sick anti-vaxxers?

    How did we become this stupid and anti-science? It's depressing.
    Yes. Yes. The hospitals will be fine. But businesses can require it of employees, as can public and private schools. There are ways to force enough of them to get it. By the way, this is not just a problem on the crazy right.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beefytee View Post
    It isn't just the anti-vaxxers who would be affected though. Much like all vaccines, there are people with health issues that can't get vaccines and are dependent on herd immunity to stay healthy.

    I imagine that all children attending public schools in Utah will be required to get the vaccine, similar to other vaccines. https://immunize.utah.gov/school-ear...nization-rule/

    Unfortunately there is an exemption for Medical (Good), religious (debatable), and Personal (bad) reasons.

    Time to at least get rid of the personal exemption.
    That personal exemption makes the whole requirement meaningless. "You are required to get your kids vaccinated - unless you don't want to."
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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    It's interesting to me how relatively prominent the anti-vaccine sentiment is among mormons. I don't remember this sentiment among the good folks of SLC while I was growing up, but from what my brother tells me it is relatively wide-spread among educated mormons and the poorly educated (I love the poorly educated!).

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    Board eye candy beefytee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    That personal exemption makes the whole requirement meaningless. "You are required to get your kids vaccinated - unless you don't want to."
    Yep, outside of some bureaucratic hoops to jump through, it makes it meaningless. Time to get rid of it.

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    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    It's interesting to me how relatively prominent the anti-vaccine sentiment is among mormons. I don't remember this sentiment among the good folks of SLC while I was growing up, but from what my brother tells me it is relatively wide-spread among educated mormons and the poorly educated (I love the poorly educated!).
    I don't quite get where that Utah gene comes from. I guess it is from our history of not wanting others to tell us what to do.

    Driving through St. George recently, I saw a minivan with the words "Moms Against Masks" and "#covidscam" written on the back window.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    My brother packed up his family and moved to Hawaii, from California, because California requires vaccines to enroll kids into school. His wife is an anti-vaxxer because she doesn't want her kids to get the autism.

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    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    That personal exemption makes the whole requirement meaningless. "You are required to get your kids vaccinated - unless you don't want to."
    Frankly, so does the religious exemption. It's super-easy to start your own church and you don't even need to have an officially organized and recognized church to claim religious exemptions for stuff. People could start the "24-Hour Church Of Antivax" [1] and claim religious exemption as easily as the personal exemption.

    [1] A play on my favorite church, which offered legal weddings for $25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hour_Church_of_Elvis

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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    My brother packed up his family and moved to Hawaii, from California, because California requires vaccines to enroll kids into school. His wife is an anti-vaxxer because she doesn't want her kids to get the autism.
    Vaccines don't cause autism.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Vaccines don't cause autism.
    Apparently they do damage one's snark detectors though.

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    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    My MiL won't be getting the vaccine...well that's what she told me a month ago. She's also a DoTerra-ist and I bet that ven diagram overlaps a lot.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    My MiL won't be getting the vaccine...well that's what she told me a month ago. She's also a DoTerra-ist and I bet that ven diagram overlaps a lot.
    I bet the Venn diagram for anti-mask and anti-vaxx is close to a perfect circle.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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    Chronic Poseur USUC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    It's interesting to me how relatively prominent the anti-vaccine sentiment is among mormons. I don't remember this sentiment among the good folks of SLC while I was growing up, but from what my brother tells me it is relatively wide-spread among educated mormons and the poorly educated (I love the poorly educated!).
    I have a BIL who is Covid vaccine skeptic, I'm afraid to ask him if that applies to all vaccines. He lives in California. I am in the middle of Wasatch front suburbia, and I really don't run across many open anti vaxx folks. Maybe they secretly are. But even the lower SES families around us are quarentining and have their kids wear masks when they play outside. Maybe I'm just living in a pandemic bubble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by USUC View Post
    I have a BIL who is Covid vaccine skeptic, I'm afraid to ask him if that applies to all vaccines. He lives in California. I am in the middle of Wasatch front suburbia, and I really don't run across many open anti vaxx folks. Maybe they secretly are. But even the lower SES families around us are quarentining and have their kids wear masks when they play outside. Maybe I'm just living in a pandemic bubble.
    Just look a littler harder. Antivaxxers flourish wherever you find "conspiracy theorists," and McNaughton paintings.

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    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Just look a littler harder. Antivaxxers flourish wherever you find "conspiracy theorists," and McNaughton paintings.
    Anti-vaxxers are just as prevalent, if not more prevalent, in liberal communities. The Oregon hippies tend to be the worst about vaccines. Just go to Eugene or Portland and you'll find a ton of liberals/socialists that are against vaccines.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Anti-vaxxers are just as prevalent, if not more prevalent, in liberal communities. The Oregon hippies tend to be the worst about vaccines. Just go to Eugene or Portland and you'll find a ton of liberals/socialists that are against vaccines.
    Which is where my brother moved before Hawaii. But some politicians have started talking about mandating it up there, so he made the preemptive move to Hawaii. It is only a matter of time before it is a Federal mandate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Anti-vaxxers are just as prevalent, if not more prevalent, in liberal communities. The Oregon hippies tend to be the worst about vaccines. Just go to Eugene or Portland and you'll find a ton of liberals/socialists that are against vaccines.
    Right now it seems to be Republicans who are more likely to say they'll refuse to get a Covid vaccine. It's impossible to say how many of those folks are against all vaccines, or if they're specifically against taking one for Covid because they believe the conspiracy theories about it being a fake disease.

    https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavi...a3y-story.html

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    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    Which is where my brother moved before Hawaii. But some politicians have started talking about mandating it up there, so he made the preemptive move to Hawaii. It is only a matter of time before it is a Federal mandate.
    I can't imagine being that dumb that you would move to another state to avoid vaccines. Wow.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I can't imagine being that dumb that you would move to another state to avoid vaccines. Wow.
    It is more his wife than him...and the crazy part is that she is a DO. She quit practicing medicine because all of the facilities that she was working at were mandating that she give vaccines to patients. She refused for moral reasons. So now she does home health visits for old people.

    Crazy part is...he has an older child from a different marriage, and that kid was vaccinated. So it isn't him, it is her. But he has been converted to cause.

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    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tick View Post
    It is more his wife than him...and the crazy part is that she is a DO. She quit practicing medicine because all of the facilities that she was working at were mandating that she give vaccines to patients. She refused for moral reasons. So now she does home health visits for old people.

    Crazy part is...he has an older child from a different marriage, and that kid was vaccinated. So it isn't him, it is her. But he has been converted to cause.
    Yeesh. That is nuts.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    It's interesting to me how relatively prominent the anti-vaccine sentiment is among mormons. I don't remember this sentiment among the good folks of SLC while I was growing up, but from what my brother tells me it is relatively wide-spread among educated mormons and the poorly educated (I love the poorly educated!).
    I once read an article that stated the Church's early position on vaccines was that it was a violation of the Word of Wisdom. Then one of Brigham Young's sons died of smallpox (or some other preventable infectious disease) and they changed their position.
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Anti-vaxxers are just as prevalent, if not more prevalent, in liberal communities. The Oregon hippies tend to be the worst about vaccines. Just go to Eugene or Portland and you'll find a ton of liberals/socialists that are against vaccines.
    There certainly are plenty of Green Party super-vegan types like you describe, but they definitely aren't more prevalent, and the issues with refusing vaccines seem to be more problematic among the right, and in red states.

    This year-old article talks references how antivaxxers started in liberal circles but is now more the domain of the home-school anti-UN type Libertarian wing of the GOP. Also Rand Paul remains a pendejo.


    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...stream-1344955

    The anti-vaccine movement, which swelled with discredited theories that blamed vaccines for autism and other ills, has morphed and grown into a libertarian political rebellion that is drawing in state Republican officials who distrust government medical mandates.

    Anti-vaccine sentiments are as old as vaccines themselves — and it’s been nearly 300 years since smallpox immunization began in what is now the United States. Liberal enclaves from Boulder, Colo., to Marin County, Calif., have long been pockets of vaccine skepticism. But the current measles epidemic, with more than 880 cases reported across 25 states of a disease declared eradicated in the U.S. 19 years ago, shows it gaining power within the GOP mainstream.

    What’s new about the current anti-vaccine movement is the argument that government has no right to force parents to vaccinate their kids before they enter school. While Trump administration health officials and most Republicans in Congress still back mandatory vaccination, opposition is gaining steam among Republicans in state legislatures.

    Among some of these officials, that libertarian demand for medical freedom has displaced the traditional GOP view that it’s a civic responsibility to immunize your kids to prevent the spread of disease. As more politicians take an anti-mandate stand, some end up adopting bogus theories about the supposed harms of vaccination — threatening to roll back one of public health’s great achievements.

    In Kentucky, Gov. Matt Bevin said vaccine mandates were un-American. In Oregon, the state party used vaccine mandates to bash Democrats as violating parental rights. And in the California Senate, all 10 Republicans last Wednesday opposed a measure aimed at stopping bogus medical exemptions from vaccination. ....

    The arguments of the skeptics — that vaccine-preventable diseases like measles are God’s will, a natural process, or even a way of strengthening a child’s immune system, that the government and a rapacious pharmaceutical industry are joined in an insidious cover-up of the dangers of vaccines — are varied, and cut across political and geographic spectra, from ultra-liberal bastions of California to the religious conservatism of the South.

    The GOP tilt is more pronounced among state lawmakers than among federal ones; many prominent Republicans in Congress including most of the 16 GOP doctors have endorsed vaccines. The most visible and voluble exception is Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), an ophthalmologist who says his own kids were vaccinated but the decision should be left to the parents, not the government.

    But in states where legislators have advanced serious efforts to tighten restrictions, such as Maine, Washington, Colorado and Oregon, nearly all of the opponents are Republicans who’ve taken a medical freedom stance.

    “The more they dig into it being about freedom, the more susceptible they become to the theories,” said Dave Gorski, a Michigan physician who has tracked the anti-vaccine movement for two decades. “Appeals to freedom are like the gateway drug to pseudoscience.”

    At the extremes are legislators like Jonathan Stickland, a pro-National Rifle Association, Christian conservative in the Texas Legislature, who has described vaccines as “sorcery” while personally attacking Baylor College of Medicine scientist Peter Hotez, who has a daughter with autism and works on vaccines for neglected tropical diseases. “Parental rights mean more to us than your self-enriching 'science,'" Stickland tweeted at Hotez earlier this month.

    That same day, the Oregon Republican Party’s official Twitter account posted that Oregon Democrats were “ramming forced injections down every Oregon parent's throat.”
    Last edited by frank ryan; 07-24-2020 at 04:49 PM.

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