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Thread: April 2020 General Conference - Global Pandemic Edition

  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    It says a lot about how he got started out the gate that he can announce temples in Dubai and China, and the next day we are talking about being frustrated that the changes aren't earth-changing enough.
    Agreed. It was an incredible moment when he announced those two temples, and explained exactly how the Shanghai temple would work.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    I can't wait until our fast this Friday kills COVID-19 and you doubting Thomas types have to eat your words.
    Fast 2.0: This time we're super cereal! Y'all basically ended the droughts in Australia a while back, so I have no doubt I'll be browsing CS back at work in no time.

  3. #153
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    We were all hoping for a return of Stake Roadshows so the disappointment is understandable.
    Amen! Are TV shows such as Dancing With The Stars, American Idol, et al popular with the youth? or should we stick with the Amish-themed trek?
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
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  4. #154
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    I've seen multiple people criticize the FP and Q12 as being "out of touch" and "insulated from the goings on of the real world" the past few days. My understanding is that these men travel more miles, visit more places on the planet, meet with more people of all ages, races, socio-economic, education, and other backgrounds, see more of governments and nations, discuss more problems, and understand the workings of the world more than 99.999% of other people on the planet.

    Can someone explain to me what, exactly, makes them out of touch? Frankly, from my perspective the FP/Q12 seem way more in touch with the goings on of the real world than message board warriors who whine about the messages from the FP/Q12 not penetrating their own personal cocoon of expectations/desires.

  5. #155

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    I started reading this thread. This thread is boring.
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  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    I've seen multiple people criticize the FP and Q12 as being "out of touch" and "insulated from the goings on of the real world" the past few days. My understanding is that these men travel more miles, visit more places on the planet, meet with more people of all ages, races, socio-economic, education, and other backgrounds, see more of governments and nations, discuss more problems, and understand the workings of the world more than 99.999% of other people on the planet.

    Can someone explain to me what, exactly, makes them out of touch? Frankly, from my perspective the FP/Q12 seem way more in touch with the goings on of the real world than message board warriors who whine about the messages from the FP/Q12 not penetrating their own personal cocoon of expectations/desires.
    there's not really a way to say this without sounding like i'm throwing shade, and i truly am not, but here goes: you think a bunch of retired, geriatric white men, many of whom have spent the preceding decades in church administration rather than punching a clock (and a number of whom are ces lifers who never really participated in the workforce at all), flying on private planes to attend carefully curated social events sponsored by people whose goal it is to impress them (whether or not they're members), and then discussing their impressions from those carefully curated social events among themselves and with a staff of people who take below market compensation because of their sincerely held belief that they are furthering the work of god as filtered through the people they support, are connected with the struggles of the dead average american, much less the people on the margins of society (lgbtq+, intersectional minorities, women, addicts, etc.)? i disagree, and i think actions and policies bear that out.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  7. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    there's not really a way to say this without sounding like i'm throwing shade, and i truly am not, but here goes: you think a bunch of retired, geriatric white men, many of whom have spent the preceding decades in church administration rather than punching a clock (and a number of whom are ces lifers who never really participated in the workforce at all), flying on private planes to attend carefully curated social events sponsored by people whose goal it is to impress them (whether or not they're members), and then discussing their impressions from those carefully curated social events among themselves and with a staff of people who take below market compensation because of their sincerely held belief that they are furthering the work of god as filtered through the people they support, are connected with the struggles of the dead average american, much less the people on the margins of society (lgbtq+, intersectional minorities, women, addicts, etc.)? i disagree, and i think actions and policies bear that out.
    I don't know. I was in a meeting with Elder Rasband, and he did a pretty good job of articulating the problems young people face today.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    there's not really a way to say this without sounding like i'm throwing shade, and i truly am not, but here goes: you think a bunch of retired, geriatric white men, many of whom have spent the preceding decades in church administration rather than punching a clock (and a number of whom are ces lifers who never really participated in the workforce at all), flying on private planes to attend carefully curated social events sponsored by people whose goal it is to impress them (whether or not they're members), and then discussing their impressions from those carefully curated social events among themselves and with a staff of people who take below market compensation because of their sincerely held belief that they are furthering the work of god as filtered through the people they support, are connected with the struggles of the dead average american, much less the people on the margins of society (lgbtq+, intersectional minorities, women, addicts, etc.)? i disagree, and i think actions and policies bear that out.
    I can understand why you think that is an accurate description of church leaders.

    I do not.
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  9. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    I can understand why you think that is an accurate description of church leaders.

    I do not.
    i take no offense at your disagreement; we all have different experiences that color our reads of situations. my experience, combined with my preference to attribute bad decisions in this case to sincere concern for but a disconnect with an audience (as opposed to what some might call callousness or even intentional cruelty) guide my conclusion. but, the proof is in the pudding: young people are apathetic or worse. something is broken.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  10. #160
    Strikes and Gutters chrisrenrut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    I find myself contemplating either a longer fast or giving up something besides food.
    If you want to increase sacrifice, I recommend giving up going to the bathroom.

  11. #161
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    I’m not a doubting Thomas. I found a lot of inspiration in the talks from this conference.

    But there was a 6 month build up to this conference. We were told to expect historic things. This from a presidency who had already instituted some pretty big changes. And we got a logo, and a proclamation that’s basically reiterates what we have all been taught 1000 times, and a hosanna shout.

    I may not be in tune enough to understand the bigger picture. Perhaps these changes are not for the benefit of the saints, but will have a big influence on those not currently of our faith. Could this pandemic trigger a reawakening throughout the world? Might these changes be timely to facilitate expansion of the gospel? I don’t know. This presidency certainly seems prescient with their home based worship initiative last year for where we are today.

    Or maybe you OG is right. Currently, I’m about 60/40 on OG’s take. I guess that does make me a bit cynical.

  12. #162
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    That's excellent advice and pretty much the roadmap for what kept me in the church.
    It is great advice.

    If you haven't already read it, you would probably like Bruce & Marie Hafen's recent (2018) book, Faith Is Not Blind. It's a short book. This advice reminds me of their observation of the "simplicity beyond complexity." The process of building faith usually begins with that faith being simplistic, untested, naive, and idealistic. At some point it becomes challenged and we uncover difficulties and complexities. We struggle with conflicts and uncertainty. Stage three, if you can get there, is back to a different type of simplicity that is beyond the complexity. It's an informed and tested faith that focuses on the important stuff. It's a mature simplicity. Anyhow, it struck a chord with me. Lots of other good stuff in this book, too.

  13. #163
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    Default April 2020 General Conference - Global Pandemic Edition

    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    i take no offense at your disagreement; we all have different experiences that color our reads of situations. my experience, combined with my preference to attribute bad decisions in this case to sincere concern for but a disconnect with an audience (as opposed to what some might call callousness or even intentional cruelty) guide my conclusion. but, the proof is in the pudding: young people are apathetic or worse. something is broken.
    Something is broken, but it goes well beyond church leaders, or even just our church, or even just churches. Itís Bowling Alone on meth out there.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    Iím not a doubting Thomas. I found a lot of inspiration in the talks from this conference.

    But there was a 6 month build up to this conference. We were told to expect historic things. This from a presidency who had already instituted some pretty big changes. And we got a logo, and a proclamation thatís basically reiterates what we have all been taught 1000 times, and a hosanna shout.

    I may not be in tune enough to understand the bigger picture. Perhaps these changes are not for the benefit of the saints, but will have a big influence on those not currently of our faith. Could this pandemic trigger a reawakening throughout the world? Might these changes be timely to facilitate expansion of the gospel? I donít know. This presidency certainly seems prescient with their home based worship initiative last year for where we are today.

    Or maybe you OG is right. Currently, Iím about 60/40 on OGís take. I guess that does make me a bit cynical.
    The Hosanna shout was nbd, the proclamation was annoying in that not only was it not particularly interesting, my wife reminded it, emphasized how important it was because it's a proclamation, and made us all listen to it again.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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  15. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    i take no offense at your disagreement; we all have different experiences that color our reads of situations. my experience, combined with my preference to attribute bad decisions in this case to sincere concern for but a disconnect with an audience (as opposed to what some might call callousness or even intentional cruelty) guide my conclusion. but, the proof is in the pudding: young people are apathetic or worse. something is broken.
    So you think if the packaging is right, they will THEN believe in God? Man, God really sucked at packaging when he lost that 1/3 in heaven and all.

  16. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    We were all hoping for a return of Stake Roadshows so the disappointment is understandable.
    Man, our roadshows were the best ever. Thanks Michael McClean!

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    I've seen multiple people criticize the FP and Q12 as being "out of touch" and "insulated from the goings on of the real world" the past few days. My understanding is that these men travel more miles, visit more places on the planet, meet with more people of all ages, races, socio-economic, education, and other backgrounds, see more of governments and nations, discuss more problems, and understand the workings of the world more than 99.999% of other people on the planet.

    Can someone explain to me what, exactly, makes them out of touch? Frankly, from my perspective the FP/Q12 seem way more in touch with the goings on of the real world than message board warriors who whine about the messages from the FP/Q12 not penetrating their own personal cocoon of expectations/desires.
    Here's where I think the perception of them being out of touch comes from:

    They play the "I have the answers" and "I have authority that you must respect" cards with great frequency. Some of this is people constantly looking to them for "the answers," but when a member of the LDS hierarchy is interacting with either faithful church members or through the media, it's inevitably from a position of, "What I'm saying is not just an opinion. I have authority and am a special emissary of Jesus Christ."

    Whether they are at the special High Council Meeting for Stake Conference, are speaking at General Conference, or are just holding a press conference, they project these attributes.

    The shadow side of these projections is that it can seem like they are poor listeners. The deep shadow side is that they can seem like they might not be listening to God.

    Being expected to have answers, and having the faithful constantly deferring to their authority, can actually cultivate poor listening skills. So undoubtedly, some in the LDS hierarchy are poor listeners, and in that sense are out of touch, but that really isn't any different than it is for any position where someone is put on such a pedestal.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

  18. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    I don't know. I was in a meeting with Elder Rasband, and he did a pretty good job of articulating the problems young people face today.
    I agree with old_gregg, and I agree with you. They're in an impossible position, I think.

    Part of the problem is that there is very little transparency about anything. I guess that's true about any large organization. I'm sure they understand some of the problems, but I'm also sure they get a big dose of their poo not stinking. For years there is nothing all that new from the prophet, and then a type-A gets the job and starts doing stuff. People get excited about a prophet that does prophety things. And then the big buildup for the best conference ever is a new logo and declaration that doesn't seem to shed any new light. Because nobody really knows what's going on behind the scenes, everyone's expectations are all over the map and lots of people are disappointed.

    I just wish they would say what I think is *really* going on.
    "We love you. Just like you, we're trying our best to figure out life. Just like you we make a lot of mistakes. But that's ok, we all live and hopefully learn. Let's work together and try and help each other get through life the best we can."
    I intend to live forever.
    So far, so good.
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  19. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    I don't know. I was in a meeting with Elder Rasband, and he did a pretty good job of articulating the problems young people face today.
    I'm curious now. What did he say?
    I intend to live forever.
    So far, so good.
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  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    I agree with old_gregg, and I agree with you. They're in an impossible position, I think.

    Part of the problem is that there is very little transparency about anything. I guess that's true about any large organization. I'm sure they understand some of the problems, but I'm also sure they get a big dose of their poo not stinking. For years there is nothing all that new from the prophet, and then a type-A gets the job and starts doing stuff. People get excited about a prophet that does prophety things. And then the big buildup for the best conference ever is a new logo and declaration that doesn't seem to shed any new light. Because nobody really knows what's going on behind the scenes, everyone's expectations are all over the map and lots of people are disappointed.

    I just wish they would say what I think is *really* going on.
    "We love you. Just like you, we're trying our best to figure out life. Just like you we make a lot of mistakes. But that's ok, we all live and hopefully learn. Let's work together and try and help each other get through life the best we can."
    The perceived lack of transparency is also a factor, I think, and especially for those who are less inclined to just defer to authority.
    Last edited by Sleeping in EQ; 04-07-2020 at 07:33 AM.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

  21. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    So you think if the packaging is right, they will THEN believe in God? Man, God really sucked at packaging when he lost that 1/3 in heaven and all.
    i think we could do better.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  22. #172
    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Something is broken, but it goes well beyond church leaders, or even just our church, or even just churches. It’s Bowling Alone on meth out there.
    Agreed.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    i think we could do better.
    Signed,

    Uzzah
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  24. #174

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    The GA's were once youth leaders and bishops. Some of them were type A's, but they undoubtedly cared for the members then (just as they care for them now). A lot of them weren't out of touch when they were local leaders. But it just seems as they rise through the ranks their focus becomes more of enforcing church teachings and doctrine, rather than the real world problems they dealt with as local leaders. I'm not even sure that's a terrible thing organizational-wise. But it does reinforce the optics that they stand apart from the membership. And speaking from a former hero-worshipper, it makes it easier to venerate them too much. And to also become more frustrated when they don't seem to address significant problems, not only doctrinal but real-world ones.

  25. #175
    Huge Member BigPiney's Avatar
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    My bishop is an asshole, so that doesn't make me feel much better.

  26. #176

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    I am trying to understand this notion of being out of touch or outdated? From the same voices we hear that the issues are complex and nuanced, and yet the solutions to potentially solving those issues are black and white. How can black and white solutions solve what otherwise are highly nuanced and complex situations?

    What an awful contradiction and presupposition to contemplate. We want leaders that are human, that are in touch with their humanity, but then also expect from them magic; in particular the ability to say a few words and uzzah, it is done, problem solved ... if only they had listened sooner.

    If only it were that easy.

    Some "thing" isn't broken; people are broken. Wouldn't we do well to understand that this is true of all people—each in their own respective sphere including the brethren? Or, are they exempt from such mercy, not because they say so but because ... we say so?

    In one breath several voices here warn against placing church leaders on a pedestal, all while placing them on a completely different and even more untenable pedestal. They are expected to both lead a world wide church and simultaneously be common, or commonly aware of the everyday struggles of the every day individual. Because after all, up on that new pedestal they have been placed, that is their mandate; a mandate that declares their commonness is forgotten and has to be re-learned which is a curiously high bar to clear because it implies they are not human ... but rather uber human?

    And what about the sisters of LDS leadership? What is their role in all this discussion about "geriatric old white men" who aren't actually all white, nor are they decrepit. Do the Sisters get a pass because they are forgotten, or worse, because they aren't even considered relevant to the discussion?

    Now there is a conundrum.
    Last edited by tooblue; 04-07-2020 at 09:39 AM.

  27. #177
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    And what about the sisters of LDS leadership?
    Doesn't exist. We don't hang portraits of women on the walls of LDS chapels.
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
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  28. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Doesn't exist. We don't hang portraits of women on the walls of LDS chapels.
    There are none hanging in the Conference Center or else where on Temple Square and at Church headquarters? Better check that ...

    And it's the Brethren that are the problem
    Last edited by tooblue; 04-07-2020 at 09:50 AM.

  29. #179
    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigPiney View Post
    My bishop is an asshole, so that doesn't make me feel much better.
    What about the prior bishop?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  30. #180
    Huge Member BigPiney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    What about the prior bishop?
    He is not much better.

    Actually probably more so now that I think about it. Just in different ways.

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